Xiao Han
Hopping the Fence Transcript – #17, Xiao Han
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Hopping the Fence – S2E7: Xiao Han
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RC: Hello, I’m Rebecca Casalino, and this is Hopping the Fence, a podcast dedicated to talking to artists on the fringes of the Canadian art scene.
Xiao Han is an artist and curator based in Wuhan and Saskatoon. Using photography, Han’s research-creation projects investigate diaspora, identity, gender issues and cross-cultural interpretation. As an independent curator, Han has curated numerous exhibitions collectively with artists and art institutions in Canada and China. Han's public art "Yee Clun’s Lost Story'' was permanently installed, in the summer of 2017, in Regina Arts Park. This project reflects the lost story of immigrant and restaurant owner Yee Clun in Regina in 1924 when he challenged the racist "Saskatchewan's White Women's Labour Law ''.
Xiao Han (Madam X) is an artist, curator and writer. With photography, Han’s artwork focuses on sexual exploration through the BDSM culture. Han organizes an online-based community with BDSM-Art activities. With this community, Han does interviews and story writing to share experiences of unique interests.
Our conversation was recorded in Hamilton within Treaty 3 territory on the ancestral land of the Haudenosaunee and Anishinaabe nations under the Dish With One Spoon wampum agreement.
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RC: Hey Xiao!
XH: Hello Rebecca.
RC: How’s it goin’?
XH: I’m doing good, how are you?
RC: I’m good, I’m good. Just drinking my usual caffeine.
XH: Awesome.
RC: Where are you right now?
XH: Well, I am at my home office in Saskatoon, the Treaty 6 territory lines. I'm with my two dogs and one parrot in my office.
RC: So I was wondering if we could just start off with talking about your art practice and your photography specifically. When did you start your photography practice?
XH: Well, I took photo when I was little 'cause my mom always having these film cameras around in the house. But in the art program, I started to practice in 2009 at BC, the university called Thompson Rivers University. And the dramatic part is I actually went to a tourism program at that time, but they said, “You need an elective class, how about a photography class?” I thought it was an easy, cheesy, nice credit course that I could just go there for fun. And then it turns out it's a dark room base.
RC: Wow.
XH: And I never...And I never experienced with darkroom. And I got attracted. And that's the course get me into the fine arts program. So I changed my career plan, just jumped to the fine arts, visual arts in TRU. So yeah.
RC: That's so cool!
XH: [Laughs]. Yeah, this is my story that I told my parents very later ‘cause they didn't even notice I changed my major until I almost graduated. I told them, "I'm an artist!" And my parents said, "yeah yeah, you're an artist." In the way they encourage their kids, you're an artist. I said "No, no, I got a degree, I'm an artist." [Both laugh].
RC: Surprise!
XH: Surprise! Anyway, that's my story, I start with photography. So photography is still my medium nowadays to do art.
RC: Do you want to talk a bit about the photo darkroom? We had one in my undergrad but I am so not a photographer, so I do not know how it works. I know that it's magical, but I do not know how it works.
XH: [Laughs] Yeah the most fun part is the chemistry, the chemical process. [inaudible]. And then I just realized art is not just what I thought about sitting there and drawing, being 100% of creativity.
RC: Mhm.
XH: It's also including technical skills including the chemical mixing and also names of those developers and the fixers. So I got drawn to it 'cause I just realized the scientific part of it I guess at the beginning, then I just researched the artists that have...especially from North America and Japan. So yeah, it was very interesting class. And I remember that professor named Meera Singh. I think she went to OCAD and been professor here for a while. That time, all the classroom...I think that entire class was for elective... I was the only one who changed my mind - no, I want this to be my life.
RC: That's so awesome! Did you start off with like storytelling? Because I feel like all your images are so, so narrative-based, and I love that you’re the model even if there's multiple subjects, that's just so funny to me. [Laughs].
XH: Thank you, thank you. Yeah... that was one for later, 'cause I realized I like telling stories. Especially with the negative you have a lot of choices. And I realized staging and in the lighting studio, the hours... it is actually the most satisfying hours for me. So I started to create stories, like write story boards, script, and hire my friends and they come over to the lighting studio and then tell them the story. And then...I act like a director, like trying to direct them to act. But then later I feel like it's so naive, but it's a fun time. So I'm still doing that narrative right now with photography. And then I realized it's so hard to gather actors and actresses.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
XH: So one time I just realized, why not just use my own body? Just participate with my imaging? So I start to do that using double exposure with film camera.
RC: Wow.
XH: So I expose twice. So me standing two different spots and having conversations with myself. And it turns out so good, like ghostly good... like, spookily good. So I said, "Okay." Then once I start that, I'm just getting more comfortable with just me as my own actor.
RC: Mhm.
XH: So that's one of the reason. And later I was investigating this topic about the Chinese one-child policy during the 80s, 'cause I was born in the 80s and I'm the only child. And I don't even notice what's that mean until I come to Canada, everybody talking about their siblings. Their sister, bothers, their drama, their fights. I was like, "Yeah, I have a sister, blah blah blah." And then I realized, "Oh, that's not a sister, that's a cousin." Oh, I just realized, yeah none of us have the sister. So it become a topic I realized, "Oh that's an important topic I want to talk about." Then using my own body participate with this one child policy issue, that I found, I realized having myself inside of my photography like multiple times, could be my own reflection. Seeing the words because we're so centered, you're the only one in the family. We're so centered in a way, for a long time, I don't even know what it means if someone else exists in the same family. What does it feel like having a sibling? Yeah, so that's the initial plan to do a project. I'm still using that photo right now for my profile photo. [Both laugh]. My family photo of me playing everybody in my family.
RC: Yeah and role-playing seems to be a very key part of your practice. Do you want to expand a bit on that? Role playing as your mom, role playing is your dad, role playing as a younger you.
XH: Oh yeah. I had a very close relationship with my cousin. I used to call her my sister 'cause we don't know, we're both one child. And then when we are hang out together, we always do this role play like, "Okay, you be the dad, I'll be mom, and the little one would be the kid." Like that kind of family roleplay.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
XH: We're so drawn to it, we're so serious. We need to cook and have scheduled. We go grocery too. and then the rest, that's interesting. Why do I just adopt that to be part of my storyboard for myself? And then except the family photo, I did another photography that me playing as my dad and then as my mom. And the missing girl, there is a photography on the wall, the missing girl is somewhere else at that time the mom and dad is worried. So the TV in the center of that room reflecting the chaos happening in China 1989. Trying to imply that I should not get involved. 'Cause the younger generation 'cause they are outside of the family then they're in danger. So that's from a parent's perspective, seeing the chaos at that time. So roleplay... also helped me through this project, also helped me understand more about my parents’ worry, even though I still don't know if that's actual worry they had. But when I dress up and I'm acting on the stage for my camera, I realize it can be true that what they're worried is not about the chaos, they're just worried about their daughter.
RC: Yeah.
XH: Like, I wish she's safe, right? So... yeah and it's a way having connection with my parents. After years, the role play just be part of my signature in my photo. And then later another photography in Regina is a public art project, I also did that. And I was so worried the curator's so mad 'cause I dress up...his key person, me myself. But then it turns out good, so I think I will keep this role play as my signature, [laughs].
RC: It's so good. And the way you talk about staging and acting on your...like they're sets. And it's so funny because these are still images, but it's almost like you're a director, like you said, and you're making a movie.
XH: Yeah! Like Cindy Sherman is one of the biggest reference I have. And also Gregory Crewdson. He does like large format camera shooting. And he will hire stage will crew come over and build a stage for him. And he will just have one shot. And it was so drawn to it 'cause usually we watch a movie, either a short film or movie, it's a time-based medium that you need to read through the time. But his photo, so does Cindy Sherman's photography, you read the story in one shot, like in one image. And there are hints everywhere, their relationship and there will be implied ongoing story behind the scene. So I was very drawn into staging photography when I was in TRU and also later I moved to Saskatchewan, I keep going with that.
RC: Yeah 'cause the one that I'm thinking about specifically is the Yee Clun piece from 2017. Like, the wallpaper is so beautiful. And I just... did you actually install that wallpaper on your set?
XH: Yeah! Yee Clun project is one of the lost story project across Canada. There are four stories. So Yee Clun is the one from Regina, he's a Chinese restaurant owner from the beginning of 20th century. And then I was hired to be the artist to create a [inaudible] for this project for history. And then I realized Asian restaurants usually have a very distinct decoration, especially wallpaper with lotus. And they like colour that's red and gold and blue. So I, well, Value Village usually is my resource. I went there, I found this wallpaper with lotus on it - that's perfect. And then just got ‘em all and install it in my garage studio.
RC: Amazing.
XH: [Laughs]. And then just install it and play... and I also have to, you're asking what's Yee Clun wearing in the 20's?
RC: Yeah.
XH: So that hat and also that shoes from Value Village. But it's also...I also have to fit the 20s fashion, I know. So the waitress, or the lady who's wearing that red skirt, actually it's a customized skirt. I found from the archive. There's the 20s waitress uniform.
RC: Oh wow!
XH: Yeah, so I found exactly the same colour of fabric, and then send it out to tailor. They made it for me. So everything is very staged with historical research. There might be some part not exactly fit into it, but I'm trying to represent the 20s, Yee Clun's cafe at that time.
RC: Mhm.
XH: Called "cafe" instead of "restaurant," for that environment.
RC: Yeah. Now I'm looking even closer at the image and like, the teacup is kind of those old school metal teacups, and like, all the photos and everything. Did you get all of those from Value Village or did you print out some of the props?
XH: Oh, props usually, especially like 2D props, I will design them and then print them out myself.
RC: Oh my gosh, wow.
XH: It's, it's... there are lots of hint. I think there are many clue on the wall.
RC: Mhm.
XH: Even now, people don't realize. Sometimes I like to photoshop one of the faces. Like, say if I have a group photo in the background, I'll photoshop one of the faces to my face -
RC: Oh my gosh, [laughs].
XH: - just for fun. Just in case one day people find out. [Laughs].
RC: Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Like little Easter eggs hidden for everybody.
XH: Yeah, but those photo are all from the 20s. Some of them from China, some of them from the community already settled in Saskatchewan.
RC: And your face is covered in both of these. Like the restaurant waitress, she's kind of holding this tray and the jug is covering her face. And then the man is holding open a newspaper. I was just wondering about that choice specifically.
XH: Well yeah, 'cause it's a commission job, and I do have a creative relationship with Yee Clun's family. Like his daughter in Vancouver, his grandson in Vancouver. They all knows what I'm doing. But at that time, I do need modelling someone for Yee Clun. So without an identity, I think would be better to have a figure that people think that's Yee Clun, but it could also be anyone else who owns a restaurant. Any other Chinaman was in Canada at that time. So the newspaper, this guy holding was the newspaper for 1924. I think it’s August 12th. And it's the newspaper reporting about Yee Clun went to the city council trying to sue the government that this is the racist and the sexism law. And then I collaged all the news together 'cause obviously they wouldn't put too much in the newspaper at that time. But actually I collect all the news together, collaging them on this newspaper. So it's a full page about Yee Clun's story.
RC: Wow.
XH: Yeah and also women at that time needs job, like hints, right? 'Cause this story’s about white women labour law in Regina. That Chinese men needs permit to hire white women to work in their restaurant.
RC: Wow.
XH: So women needs job, men needs help, Chinese restaurant needs help. But this law is kind of actually banned them for their own reason.
RC: [Gasp].
XH: Yeah, so that newspaper tells the truth, quote unquote, from the 1924. And in the Regina park right now, the public art. This image is I think eight by eight feet. So the newspaper is actually the real size. And if you go close, you can read the newspaper.
RC: Wow.
XH: Like at your height. So covering your face is hiding identity, but also it's trying to... and it's for the female figure too. 'Cause white female can be not white female, it doesn't matter. But just someone in this restaurant working there. And everybody participates with this activity that Yee Clun raised.
RC: I didn't realize you were in touch with the family. I think that that's a really beautiful way of making art about a historical figure, like recognizing that they have relatives that, you know, are alive and well today and are obviously going to be very attached to this story. How did you get in touch with them? Did you... were you in touch with them first and then you found this story? How did you arrive at this project?
XH: I was just proposed, I sent a proposal to the curator 'cause… his name is Ronald Rudin, he's a historian professor at Concordia University. So he made a call, 'cause he knows he needs an artist in the province of Saskatchewan. 'Cause this story happened in Saskatchewan. He need an artist here to create a story for Yee Clun. So I was just graduated from University of Saskatchewan at that time. My professor give me this link said, "Oh you may be interested in this story." I read the story I'm like, "I have to be the one to make this art. I feel him."
RC: Yeah.
XH: Yee Clun move to Canada when he was just 21 or 23. And me the same. So I kind of feel like there's a connection that I can see his experience. His activity too, and also what happened is he never told his family this story until 2017, his grandson realized, oh, there's a story in the family which he start to cultivate more about, and then he sent it to the curator. So that's what happened. And then I got involved, and then it's interesting experience. And I was just making the art. But overall, the gathering Yee Clun's family at Regina's park that day of this art unveiling, it's very touching.
RC: Yeah.
XH: I was in awe that I'm making the art that was so much meaningful. They all thankful for my working and I just hear more story about their family.
RC: Mhm. Wow, that's so beautiful. And like, that your stories mirror each other so much. I think you can tell that you're really connected to it. Like obviously, you put in all this work to get everything just right.
XH: Yeah, and also I connect to Yee Clun that way 'cause I know, in many books, we found a hint that he actually get lots of support from communities. Like the white women association at that time. And also a lawyer, recently a lawyer contacted me and said…a man contacted me and said his grandfather was a lawyer of Yee Clun."
RC: Wow.
XH: And he found me at LinkedIn. Wow, small world.
RC: That's so funny.
XH: Yeah, this is breathtaking. But that was its own moment. Yeah, lots of connection crazy from this project.
RC: if we want to just pivot a little bit to talk about your curatorial practice, what got you started in curation?
XH: In the photography class, [both laugh]. There's a senior photography class. We usually have a year-end show. It's a full year course, and then usually we need someone to organize the show. And then I was in charge. I mean, I wasn't know what's going on, I thought I could just put art on the walls, that's all. So I was, "Oh yeah, okay I can do it." And then it turns out, so much work. I have to think about the framing, think about the lights, think about who come to install it and when to order the pizza. So all the things that I realized, "Oh it's not just hanging." And then I got into it because after this job, I think I did great. 'Cause someone else come to me and say, "Hey do you wanna...let's work on another show together."
RC: Mhm.
XH: And my job was just calling for artists. And I said, "Oh, that's easy I just send email out." And turns out, tons of email coming back.
RC: Yuuup.
XH: Questions, and I just start to learn how to write an artist call. But I think in my personality I just love working in organization. I was insane in that way. Like working... helping artists putting their art together.
RC: For sure, for sure.
XH: And yeah, that's how I get into it. Yeah, and it's non-stop. Non-stop people invite me, people come over like, "Hey, let's do this and that." I just went, "Okay, since I don't mind, then I think I should become a curator." So I start to research more about what is the identification. Even nowadays it's still changing, which is the best part of it. [Laughs]. But yeah, I enjoy it.
RC: Yeah, so what's your... because the definition of curators changing so, so much, and like, we're both artist curators -
XH: Yeah.
RC: - how do you kind of approach your practice?
XH: Good question, [both laugh]. I... it's changing all the time.
RC: Yeah.
XH: Not just in the group, in the bubble, but also in my head. So before I come to this program I thought curator is working in a gallery. Like in AGO, in Remai, you need to write a lot of paper to form the society, balance the relationship between artist, between viewers, between collectors and buyers. And then after the year of practice, including my own practice and also the school practice, I realized curator can be anything.
RC: [Laughs], it's true.
XH: And I don't mind. Before I really care if people called me "artist." 'Cause I wanna say, "No, I'm a curator." And then now I don't really care. You can call me anything you want. But it's more, setting more boundary in between. Like if I'm working on a project as an artist, then I know more...like, where should I focus on. The practice itself, the creativity. The way how to challenge in the boundary.
RC: For sure.
XH: And then being a curator is more about the premise, the parameter, the framework. And also the...the collaborative. The collaboration part. So…yeah. Together, I've found it's even better, powerful.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
XH: 'Cause as an artist I know what curator does. And as a curator, I know what artists think.
RC: Exactly.
XH: So in a way, it's benefit both my hats. Yeah. But the only thing bothers me right now is when I'm, say, trying to write a proposal. 'Cause I have great idea, but I can't define if it's an artist project or a curator project.
RC: I know!
XH: Then the organization usually will email me back like, "I think this is a curatorial practice."
RC: Oh no!
XH: And I said, "No it's art. 'Cause I have to make, I have to create."
RC: Mhm.
XH: They're like, "No, I think you being a mentor, it's a curatorial project." And then if I think such a thing I will create such a work, for public art for example, the organization usually will think, "But you're creating, why don't you wanna be the artist?" I'm like," alright, alright."
RC: Oh my goodness.
XH: But it's fun. I believe you have the same experience. It's fun.
RC: Basically yeah.
XH: We're making our own vocabulary.
RC: Yeah, and that's the most exciting thing. And I think OCAD, the Curatorial Practices program is still pretty new, and the people who are running it are all very innovative curators. So it's always changing.
XH: Yeah that's the best part actually. 'Cause I've found, in CARFAC there's no payment that says for curator.
RC: I know.
XH: But it has like technician fee or presentation or knowledge sharing.
RC: Mhm.
XH: But then, to me, it's also curator should be paid because they... it's experience based first of all. If I shared it and I don't even have a standard rate for myself. But it's getting there I believe.
RC: Yeah, slowly, slowly.
XH: Slowly. So we can be artists sometimes, just 'cause CARFAC have an artist fee for sure.
RC: I know. I think it's easier to approach things as just naming yourself as an artist. If you end up creating then you end up curating, [laughs].
XH: Yeah, I like the independent curator's hat. Because it's free and it's more creative.
RC: Yeah.
XH: Maybe it's more on the artist side of me that I like to be creative as a curator as well.
RC: For sure, for sure.
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RC: This week’s podcast recommendation is an episode of Code Switch: Care to Explain Yourself? It's hot out, places are shutting down again, and things might just be feeling a little bit slow. So in the spirit of spicing things up, Code Switch wanted to give listeners a question to fight about: How much context should you have to give when talking about race and culture? Is it better to explain every reference, or ask people to Google as they go? Comedian Hari Kondabolu joins us to hash it out.
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RC: Have you created at any formal spaces or are you mostly doing DIY kind of things?
XH: I do both. Initially I did more formal spaces 'cause the group or artists invited me. So it's mostly about like, university gallery needs a curator for a project, and then I'll be the curator. And then international exchange because I know Mandarin and English, so if artist come from China want to show here, I will be the curator, organize all the space, the people, and the sponsors for them. So...but later I realized, I just don't wanna work with those [inaudible] anymore. So I start my... I think the first one I tried was a garage show with my friend. And it turned out good, it's a group show. And then later we realized, yeah, showing an art exhibition should be more focused on sharing and inspiring. Then I just start more practice with alternative space for curatorial practice.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
XH: Yeah.
RC: Well that's so cool. I think it's...yeah, it's really funny that you started off like you said, in more formal spaces. And now you’re like, "No, we have a garage we're going to do it."
XH: Yeah why not? I have a white wall here. You can use my office too. Like a combination of studio visiting and exhibition, it depends. So now I'm more, very interested in those kind of public space curatorial projects. I notice there are library and mini-gallery in community corner.
RC: Mhm.
XH: Sometimes they just stand in there with [inaudible] lights and that's beautiful. I love to just stop and then approach and look what's going on. And to share with the community, like sharing and also knowledge. So yeah, that's curatorial too.
RC: It is.
XH: And it's very interesting.
RC: That's so cool. And... Yeah, I feel like your experience factors so much into your practice. And you run a blog like a kind of diary. How does diary keeping factor into your curation and into your art making?
XH: Well...hmm. This is another topic. Diary was the time, during 2019, I start a blog and I start to write. In Chinese though.
RC: Mhm.
XH: And I realized...'cause at that time, I spent so much time in China, I travel a lot. So I can't bring my studio or any of my photography gear with me to make art. And then, you know, sometimes you just feel like, "I need to do something for my creativity."
RC: Mhm.
XH: So I start to write stories from imagination. And then I realized, that's so much fun. And it's quicker. 'Cause for photography, I need to set up the stage, I need to set up the lights, testing, and then sometimes dress up myself are find my friends to be the models. And the feeling's just gone sometimes, honestly.
RC: Mhm.
XH: It will be gone. but when you write stories, like let's say fictions, or diaries, it's actually so floating...a fluid in my mind.
RC: Mhm.
XH: And by some point, I was able to just start a story with one sentence. I don't even have a plan for it, and it just goes with it, and it will finish in like 1500 words as a mini story.
RC: Wow.
XH: And I put it on my blog and send out to my friends. They all love it. And 'cause we... I have a topic for those blogs, so it creates a community that I was surprised. It creates a community that lots of people loves it and we have a group chat.
RC: Wow.
XH: From then, in this group chat we're sharing lots of knowledge and images and stories and experience together.
RC: That's so cool that you're getting so much feedback from your writing!
XH: Yeah, secretly. [Both laugh]. Secretly feedback in a group chat, yes. But that blog, 'cause I use a Chinese platform, so later it got censored. So I moved it to space square.
RC: Nice.
XH: So it's now more free. That's 2019 though, yeah.
RC: Yeah. I just...hearing about you making up these stories, it almost sounds like you're doing storyboarding but just through writing versus your photography.
XH: Oh, yeah. since...I said when I was starting my photography study, I know lots of Japanese photographers. There's one called Nobuyoshi Araki. He was born in 1940. And he's a famous Japanese photographer that does lots of female body with rope art on scene. So compared to the...what's the name, erotica or pornography that we [inaudible], his photo is so strong with the communication that bodies, the model’s eye conact with the lens.
RC: Mmm.
XH: At that time, I was grade one, fist year in undergrad, I'm so shy and I can't find a model to do that.
RC: Aww.
XH: So I keep that in my head. When I start writing my diary, 'cause I wrote those imagination story from experience sharing from the community, from the group chat. Lots of people having rope art, I will say Shibari, that’s the Japanese name…rope art, boundary art on human bodies. They did that experience. They will take photos as an archive. But some of the photos just reminds me of Nobuyoshi's photos. And I realized, photography is not just a record of an object or scene. 'Cause you can tell whoever the model is or are for those, whoever took the photo, they have an unusual relationship. And that such relationship can't lie. So I found it's very intriguing. It's secretly started, and I have to know what's going on. So I did interviews with them and they told me their stories, and I found out some of them are just unique relationship. Especially in China, like it's more conservative way of thinking about family and relationships. So when I hear those and I tell them I am a stan and I really like the way your relationship growing and can I write a story about it, they say "Yeah, you could."
RC: Oh wow.
XH: It's not an interview way for privacy. So I wrote it in a fiction way. But most of the fiction is from what I heard, and part of it is my imagination.
RC: Mmm.
XH: To blend them together. So that blog become one of my creative practice during 2019. And then, yeah. I just found more and more artistic in this bubble, this community, the BDSM community. They create photography with rope art. And also they have candles, like bright kind of candles. And they create different colours 'cause when candle falls onto skins, it creates the splash, non-planned splash paint on skin. And then with multiple colour of candles on body, it actually crates beautiful image.
RC: Wow.
XH: And I was like, "This community is a treasure."
RC: It really is. Like, when I first came out, I was surrounded by a bunch of bisexual men who are very into Shibari and candles.
XH: Oh, those are very beautiful medium.
RC: Yeah.
XH: And also it's not easy.
RC: No.
XH: Some of the people I've talked with they have their studio for it. So they have a plastic floor they can clean up. 'Cause when you reuse the rope you need a frame to hang, so they have this rope and safety for that too.
RC: Mhm.
XH: And also they have acupuncture, what's the name... they have classes nowadays, and they have acupuncture class to tell you which part of the human body is the safest place to hang, like to weight.
RC: Mhm.
XH: I was like, "This is getting very interesting and serious."
RC: Yeah.
XH: So I wrote a story. Me myself learning Shibari right now.The hardest part is to find a model who would allow me to take photos.
RC: Mmm.
XH: But this is also part of my research and the experience like finding a relationship and putting them visual arts.
RC: Yeah, yeah. No, I remember there used to be, like, knot tying parties that would happen at Guelph where people would do a knowledge exchange of all the different knots that they've learned.
XH: Cool!
RC: 'Cause like, YouTube videos can only do so much, right? [Laughs].
XH: Yeah, I think knotting it's also a very serious practice. And also it varies when you change models. 'Cause different sized body can do different pose. It's also important that your relationship change when you switch your model. So this art is not just appearing what we see, but also its interactive, like it's in between-
RC: For sure.
XH: - the two person who's doing the performance there.
RC: Yeah, it's like community building. Like, not only with your models but all these different people who told you these different stories.
XH: Mhm, mhm.
RC: Wow.
XH: Very great experience in 2019.
RC: And how does that incorporate into your greater Madam X persona and artworks?
XH: Well Madam X is also from 2019. I tried to build a brand or studio for example. I failed because it hits the COVID just started.
RC: Yeah.
XH: But I think I just have this idea, I wanna start to find a healthy way for the community...'cause there are lots of drama and some of it goes really bad. I want to create a healthy community that does the rope art, the candle art, but also to remind that there's also an agreement in between two or three or whatever that captures. So I started this name and another blog - ah, so many blogs.
RC: [Laughs].
XH: Another blog and trying to explain what is BDSM, explain what is LGBTQ, what each letter means. What is equity mean, what is abusive, what is for play. And then I have my own follower and we have our own group chat. Madam X, it's an icon, a persona of people understand that me, a Chinese female studying overseas in Canada with a strong feminism knowledge background can support, especially girls in this community that, say, don't worry about saying something that you don’t like. Or don't worry about sharing a story that you feel, "This is not right." 'Cause it's very serious in this community.
RC: Yeah.
XH: And then… yeah, I collect a team, that we are making candles nowadays.
RC: Oh wow!
XH: We're all candles.
RC: That's so cute!
XH: Thank you! And because of the rope, when you rope human, trying to bond a human body, the rope needs to be processed.
RC: Mhm.
XH: Like with oil, with a lot of rubbing, sanding. That's what I'm still learning. But you were trying to make our own branded rope.
RC: Wow.
XH: Maybe dye it into rainbow for example.
RC: That'd be so cool!
XH: Yeah. That's just a brand name. So, we just did an exhibition with art 'cause like I say, in this community, lots of people can take photos for example. And also, some of the artists also interested and they will paint or draw about it like sketchbook or painting on canvas. So since I already have enough artist friends doing that, I thought I'd create a show called Forbitten Fruits.
RC: So good.
XH: Thank you. It's an online exhibition. And to me, online exhibition gives the benefit of such an exhibition, that we don't have to be so stressful about the censor, the public. 'Cause it's a private exhibition anyway. So that's my first try having Madam X as a sponsor for such an exhibition. And I found it's very intriguing and fun. And Madam X support all the Chinese artists. I paid them with Madam X income from earlier.
RC: Nice.
XH: Yeah, so that's what Madam X is. It's my quote unquote secret fun, but it's also a art project plus curatorial project.
RC: Wow. I didn't realize that you had curated that show and I just... There's such a beautiful community, and I think showing that online also lets people internationally to see the work that you're doing.
XH: Oh yeah, yeah. That's the best part that not limited in a location or place. Yeah, that's a topic right? As an artist, when you're curating a show you wanna put your own art in there. But once you put your own art in there, you’re like, "How can I call myself a curator? Maybe we don't need a curator." [Both laugh].
RC: That's such an artist thing to say. "Oh, no, we don't need a curator, we got this."
XH: We got this. [Both laugh].
RC: Wow. Yeah, I was also wondering about like, public vs private. You come up against censorship a couple of times it seems like, and how you navigate those two spaces. Talking about BDSM and talking about queer bodies and queer life.
XH: Hmm. I've been trying to put BDSM as a topic in my project earlier than the Yee Clun one. Either 15 or 16. But I realized, I need to be ready for this, for example, the research and the experience and also at that time I don't even want to have my have peer or cohort from the community, no one can support me. And also I did not have, for example, good or bad experience with this community that I realized, how can I have put it together, like put my statement together? But now I have a statement, that's why I can be strong enough to tell whoever... I'm actually expecting some bad feedback for my last show. I'm surprised there's no, so...but I'm so ready to send them my statement if I receive any bad comment on that with that show. But it is big challenging, 'cause whenever I do, especially sending my idea, say "I'm role playing on the stage because I think there is a domestic, uh, dominant and submissive relationship in between those actors." But then, all my professors in 2015 start to discuss about female bodies -
RC: Aww, yeah.
XH: - and the politics and the Foucault, I mean Foucault is right, [laughs]. But then I was like, "I just wanna talk about pleasure."
RC: Yeah.
XH: I know it's important to talk about female body, why it's Asian, why it's not Asian, blah blah blah, but I just wanna talk about the pleasure. And the part of why this is such a fun thing to do to the art world. And lots of artists do that.
RC: Yeah, I think maybe they were stuck in like, feminism. And you're kind of like post-feminism, queer stuff, you know?
XH: Oh, totally, totally. I was so queer and they are not ready for queer.
RC: [Laughs].
XH: So yeah. There are lots of moment that I was doubting myself like, "Maybe I was wrong, this is just porn. This is just for personal sexual [inaudible] that we shouldn't share in the art seminar, for example."
RC: Yeah. But I don't know, then we have like, really amazing photographers who do have origins in porn. And then you get to this part where you're blurring the line between porn and art and like, I think that's a really interesting place to be. But if you're super conservative I get why that would be uncomfortable, [laughs].
XH: I know! I mean, now I can talk about it. But, I mean, if we can talk about love, we can talk about happiness, why can't we talk about orgy? Like orgasm, like it's also the fun part of our life, why is it so secret? And it's such insane to have those? But I mean, for example, the artist from China who did a pinhole shot, he's a photographer. He did a pinhole shot, with staged girl masturbating in front of the pinhole camera. So long term exposures. Overall the image is kind of blurry. You can see her body with her legs open. But he did such a great job, 'cause I think he combines a concept of time in that project. This pinhole camera is a long exposure. You need patience, you can't expect too much from it 'cause you don't know how it's going to come out. Same with sexuality, sex.
RC: I was going to say same with the femme orgasm. [Both laugh].
XH: Totally, totally. I wasn't sure but now I'm like, "Okay fine. Surprise me." [Both laugh].
RC: Yeah I guess like, being queer artists/ curators, we're a bit more comfortable talking this 'cause it's what we're thinking about all the time. I was just wondering how you present that the audiences, like what your thought process is and what you include and what you don't include in like how far you go and how much nudity there is, like all those things.
XH: Hmmm. I’m still testing. Compared to all the artists exhibited in Forbidden Fruits, that show, I think mine is most conservative one. [Both laugh].
RC: That's so funny.
XH: But also I think it's because my aesthetic, they way how I see things, I like subtle style. I like secret. I like having my audience coming back a few times realize, "Oh, right! That's what she's trying to say." for example, the project I did with the hotel room numbers. It's just full of room numbers, there's no nudes in there, there's no ropes, nothing. It's just numbers. But to me, those numbers means every single time I walked in there, behind the door.
RC: Yeah, yeah.
XH: So my boundary usually settles on the politics part.
RC: Yeah, yeah.
XH: Or female body. Like I don't like seeing...like when people send me their work, for example, I know what I don't like, which is the subjectivity, female body or boys, men's bodies that in a way creates unbalance. Or it creates a reflection that people think, "This is right to do." And to me, maybe what causes unbalance is problem.
RC: Yeah, Yeah. No, I keep thinking about... I don't know if you know Jon Rafman, he's a famous Québécois artist.
XH: Mhm.
RC: But he made these body pillows of women and it was so creepy. And one I think was Emma Watson like naked. I was like, "Ew."
XH: Yeah, some art nowadays, especially contemporary, I don't know, are they challenging or that's what they're actually supporting? That's what you really like?
RC: This is what you made, why?
XH: Yeah. But as a curator, I try to be as open as possible. Like, if sometimes the art makes me not comfortable to look at, I will ask for a second opinion. Or sometimes I will just think in a way that, "Yeah, maybe it can create another topic or discussion from it, even though I don’t agree with it." So, for boundary, I've just mostly like, it has to be legal. Can't be abusive. BDSM it's different, like when you're naked, that's BDSM. When you're in clothes, that's abusive, right? So make sure you have that boundary.
And also, when we are showing each other's body, at least the model has to know. Like, usually I will ask, "Does your model know you're sending their photo around? Do you guys have an agreement?" Usually we do. I do have an agreement with my model.
RC: That's so smart. Like I'm not a photographer so this is things that I totally didn't think about. But yeah, checking with your model if you can send their images around, for sure.
XH: Yeah. 'Cause I do see dramas that those models realize the men who took a photo with her- actually it's kind of drama like she think it's not pretty enough. [Both laugh].
RC: Oh my gosh!
XH: Or he thinks, "I look stupid in this photo." They will care about that. But to me, as an artist I'm very bossy. If it's my camera, it's my work. So I do make a model that's trying to tell me, "I'm not pretty enough in this photo," I'm like, "No, this is my photo." But then I super regret, I still can't use that set of photo. I'm very satisfied with the photo itself but this person, this model just keep denying the photo I'm trying to use. So after that I start to use the agreement that you can have those photos, but those are belong to the artists themselves. Like, my photo.
RC: For sure. That's a really good thing. Also to share with listeners who are starting out with photography like, write an agreement.
XH: Yeah. No matter what kind of portrait. 'Cause one day, even though you took the full portrait, like community portraiture, one day you might need them for your website and this person can come over and sue you for it.
RC: If you want to talk more about Madam X as an alias or a brand, like I'm super interested in you branding her. [Both laugh].
XH: Oh thank you. I'm still learning but I feel lucky, I was almost start to launch at just the end of 2019. Luckily not, but I... now I'm learning more about how do you create a team, how to create a business, how to leadership a team. So I think I'm more mature than earlier and now it's more ready than earlier. So I will still stay with the candle part, but also I'm investigating with leather goods, like say the choker or accessories. So yeah, I'm really excited 'cause I love leather work –
RC: So pretty.
XH: - even though I know it's not good. But if we can have some legit used leather, for example, I go to Value Village again, buy their... they usually have like leather jacket there. And I found those jacket, their fashion is out but the leather itself didn't do anything wrong. I've already had a few of jacket that... just take a breath and cut them open and make them into a hand cloth or a choker or anything like leather goods representing BDSM fashion.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
XH: So that's my other plan. And the rope art in progress of dying. ‘Cause I have spent time on my thesis too. But Madam X gonna be launched soon, right after this thesis is done, my thesis is done.
RC: Nice.
XH: Yeah. I can't wait. It's exciting and it's also related to business and art, and that's my goal. I like working... 'cause artist needs to get paid anyway. So why not just combine business with the art practice together?
RC: Yeah. And to use Madam X's funds to pay artists is so cool. Like, paying artist to still something that I'm trying to figure out so this income strategy is just really amazing.
XH: Thank you, thank you. Well it's not that much, but we can at least support a community like Madam X is aiming to, right? Like I know there are lots of artists doing rope art like part time, just for performance in China though. The performance in the club. And also make small goods just for income, small income. But those little objects are very creative.
RC: Yeah, they're beautiful.
XH: They're beautiful. And they are, how you say? Like a therapy tool. 'Cause when you're having a heavy school going on in your life, like a small product line for them, it's actually relaxing. Just handcrafting things -
RC: For sure.
XH: - with your own art aesthetic practice.
RC: I'm looking and like, now we're at an hour. But there's a billion other things I want to talk to you about so darn. [Both laugh].
XH: You can cut them.
RC: I was just wondering about BDSM as healing and stuff. Like, that's really how I entered that community. As like BDSM as a way... for women and for people who've been assaulted and put in situations where they lose their power, it's a way to kind of reclaim your power in a very consensual way. And I was just wondering what you think about that and if that's something you’re think about as you're doing all of this?
XH: Oh that's the part I am confused most of the time. I'm still thinking about it 'cause me myself in a daily time I'm super bossy and I’m such a dominatrix in life. But in the other way, when I'm trying to participate with BDSM, except rope though, 'cause I like the feeling of controlling.
RC: Mmm.
XH: But other than that, I'm very submissive. Like, I think I'm just...'cause I'm too tired and lazy. [Both laugh].
RC: Pillow princess!
XH: Yeah. And I used to have a relationship with a girl many years ago... We just accidentally get into it, I don't even know BDSM that time. We just accidentally get into it and we love it immediately. And we just make such puppy love comments to each other, like we won't leave each other for example, blah blah blah. And that relationship goes so tangled and very emotional and... in a way, you can say it's toxic, but in the other way it's so much fun. [Both laugh]. I still miss it but I don't wanna go over again.
RC: Oh my gosh.
XH: So nowadays I think it's therapy just because it's so different than our daily life.
RC: Mhm.
XH: And not in any framework of all the social rules.
RC: Exactly.
XH: Like, I am a fem- I used to get bothered because I'd call myself a feminist, but also I'm a submissive. And then people would, especially in the community, especially men, they don't understand. Like, "How can you call yourself a feminist when you're submissive?" I'm like, "Yeah..." and I have to think about it.
RC: But it's your choice to be submissive.
XH: Yeah. And then they don't like that 'cause once you have too much choice then you're not a submissive, right?
RC: Stupid.
XH: Well, now I can adjust it but later I realized, "Yeah. It's my choice. It's me doing an action that I think I can take responsibility to."
RC: Yeah.
XH: Yeah. So I got very into a research-based practice [both laugh] with this community. So what bothers me nowadays is once I appear in this community, like with Madam X or without Madam X, everybody think I'm a dominatrix.
RC: Ahh.
XH: Like, okay fine. That's a good screen if you meet someone that I'm not interested, you just say "I'm a dominatrix, get out of my way." [Both laugh].
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RC: Thanks for listening to Hopping the Fence, a podcast dedicated to the fringes of the Canadian art scene.
If you have an artist that you would like to hear interviewed, would like to correct / fact check a past episode, or would like to chat, feel free to send me a message on Instagram @hoppingthefence, or by email at rebeccaecasalino@gmail.com. Thanks to the OCAD Student Union for your financial support. Thank you to all of our Patreons for your ongoing support. It truly does help me avoid burnout and keeps this podcast rolling. If you would like to support Hopping the Fence, please visit our Patreon to subscribe. Check out the show notes for more details. If you can’t donate, no worries. Thanks for taking the time to listen.
Audio editing for Hopping the Fence by Emily Reimer. Original artwork by Alex Gregory, and original music by Jessica Price Eisner.
Thank you so much, bye!
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