Daura Campos
Hopping the Fence Transcript – #18, Daura Campos
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Hopping the Fence – S2E8: Daura Campos
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RC: Hello, I’m Rebecca Casalino, and this is Hopping the Fence, a podcast dedicated to talking to artists on the fringes of the Canadian art scene.
Daura Campos is a Latinx, self-taught, lens-based artist and curator based in Belo Horizonte, Brazil. Her photographic practice challenges traditional image-making processes, revealing itself as more than a meta-commentary with a subtext that prompts broader conversations on the implications of existing in a dissident body.
Her What the Luck series was awarded by Adolescent and exhibited in Experimental Photo Festival, Visual Space, Make Room, and has been displayed on billboards in New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Toronto. Earlier works have been published globally on Curated by Girls, Container Love, The Soon Project, and others.
Our conversation was recorded in Hamilton within Treaty 3 territory on the ancestral land of the Haudenosaunee and Anishinaabe nations under the Dish With One Spoon wampum agreement.
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RC: Hey Daura!
DC: Hi Rebecca.
RC: How's it goin'?
DC: I'm doing just fine, and you?
RC: I'm good. A bit hot. But I'm just hanging out with my cat doing podcast stuff today.
DC: What's their name?
RC: Baby Waffles, [laughs].
DC: Oh, I love it.
RC: I just adopted her. She came with the name Waffles but it didn't really suit her so Baby Waffles it became.
DC: Say hi to her for me.
RC: I will, I think she's sleeping. [Both laugh]. But where are you right now?
DC: I'm in Belo Horizonte, Brazil, sitting right in front of my window because it's scalding hot today. And looking at some very orange skies basically.
RC: Oooh.
DC: Yeah it's very moody.
RC: Moody, yeah, sounds pretty. It's still just like, intensely bright here, [laughs]. But no beautiful orange, now I'm jealous. [Laughs].
DC: Yes, but if you come to think about it, the orange is because of those pollution.
RC: True.
DC: So it's pretty but bad. [Laughs].
RC: The world is on fire.
DC: [Laughs], yes, pretty much.
RC: But I thought that we’d just start at the beginning for a listeners and for me. In your bio it says that you're a self-taught artist. How did you start teaching yourself? How did you start getting into art?
DC: So, it's pretty funny just to think about it nowadays because it's been almost three years since I've started. But basically, at the time I was studying medicine, I was in med school. And my friend was studying abroad in Spain I believe, yeah Spain. And I went to visit her for the holidays, in Christmas and everything. And I wanted to just document stuff. And I just felt like, oh, I might get a camera because for some reason I didn't want to just photograph on my phone. And I very quickly realized that cameras are expensive. [Both laugh]. And I couldn't afford one being a full-time student. So for some reason film cameras were back on the internet and people were talking about them. And I thrifted one for what at the time was thinking maybe 50 dollars? Which, right on budget.
RC: Nice.
DC: So I purchased that and just proceeded to photograph during the trip. And I didn't really knew a lot at the time, I just read the manual and how to make the shutter work and the aperture and very basic stuff.
RC: Okay.
DC: And yeah, I made a lot of mistakes. I don't have most of the photos from that travel, but after that I just got really addicted to photographing and waiting for the results. It was a big part, just anticipating what it would look like.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And I just proceeded to watch YouTube videos, very basic stuff like most of us do. And then I decided to research all the photographers. I think the first one that I saw and then read about was Nan Goldin.
RC: Oh cool.
DC: Yes. And I was very interested and then I started to get more into the conceptual part of the artwork if you will.
RC: Mhm.
DC: But it wasn't an artwork, I was just documenting. Like I would go on streets and photograph just to do something with my day. But yeah, that's pretty much it.
RC: That's so cool that you kind of fell into film photography in a certain way. 'Cause like, I don't have a photo background but like, film is so magical from what I do know about it. [Laughs].
DC: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, it feels magical. And I feel like I never... once I got my first rolls back and they weren't as I'd hoped they would be, and because of my own fault, I realized that I have never really cared for something that much.
RC: Mmm.
DC: Because I was just. I was like, "No, I don't have these memories anymore." Which, okay, nowadays I like the photos even though they are destroyed. But I realized, "Oh, maybe there's something here." And something worthwhile, so I just started to spend more time than I should because I was studying another thing. But yeah.
RC: Yeah, I think to come at it from the happy accident is so lovely. Especially being self-taught. And thank goodness for YouTube for teaching me everything, geez.
DC: [Laughs], yes.
RC: But what were some of the other artists that you looked at? I think Nan Goldin makes a lot of sense for your work and the way that it went. Was that why you got into photographing people? Or were there other things that you were looking at?
DC: I think Nan Goldin what's the first one. And then Lawrence Philomene -
RC: Oh, I love them!
DC: Yes. I love their work so much honestly. I fangirl a little bit sometimes on Instagram.
RC: Same. [Laughs].
DC: But yeah, I found their work and more contemporary artists because of the internet.
RC: Mhm. Were you on Tumblr?
DC: Oh, I grew up on Tumblr, [laughs].
RC: Same! So that's how we both found Lawrence Philomene. Because that's how I found the contemporary art scene too.
DC: Mmm, I think I found them on Instagram.
RC: Ohh.
DC: Because I was on Tumblr around 2012...14-15ish.
RC: Okay.
DC: And I was very much involved in the fandom side of tumblr.
RC: Same.
DC: So I don't think... if I saw their work before, I didn't recognize it. I only mindful... I don't know, consumed it through Instagram and then their website and stuff.
RC: Well I love that it was through social media anyways. That's how a lot of people I find find artists, through Instagram.
DC: Mhm. Yeah, it's really helpful. And it started to inform me a lot, not only their work but the other artists I would find. And when I first started to just research, the first people that would come up who were portraiture artists, and I then started to take portraits of my friends. And that's how it came to be more of a serious thing. Kind of another happy accident because then people I didn't know were reaching out to me like, "Can you take my portrait?" "Can you take my picture?" And of course I can, but thinking that I was still a full time student then, and film costs a lot of money. And the processing and everything else. I started charging a minimal fee just to cover my expenses.
RC: Yeah that's smart.
DC: Yeah, I couldn't do it for free. [Both laugh]. And I kind of grew into it. And like I've said it started to take more of my time than I anticipated. And started to make me a little bit of money, not enough to just drop everything and devote myself to it.
RC: Mhm.
DC: But it was when things started to take here more so. But it was, I think, around November October 2019. So it's not so long ago I think.
RC: I was wondering about the pictures that you did take of your chosen family.
DC: Oh, okay. That was my first project, like, I would say project ever. Because the way that I work now, I first conceptualize things and then I go into making it.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And that was the first time that this did happen, where I was thinking, "Okay, I wanna talk about this and I wanna do this this this," and then I went ahead and did it. But at the time I was just very much into portraiture, which I'm not as much into now in my personal work. And I felt like I wanted to say something... not say but do something related to more or so social justice.
RC: Mhm.
DC: Because I think, at least I got more involved as I came of age, I'm 23. And at the time I was 21 I think. Or 22ish. I don't know anymore, what is time anyway? [Both laugh]. But I was thinking of how I could do that, and I was getting more involved in the nightlife, if you will, scene.
RC: Yeah.
DC: And more involved with just nurturing these relationships with queer people and racialized people. And really seeing how it evolves through time and through these circumstances, especially here in Brazil, which are not the best.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
DC: And that's when I first thought, "Okay, I'm going to make something about it." so I just talked to a couple of people that I knew wanted to be photographed and that were more so comfortable with me. Or that I had gotten to know through social media, or that have done some type of work related to portraiture. And we just said, and made a whole day out of it.
RC: But one of your projects from 2021, What The Luck, I feel like it has some of that portraiture still in it. And the next thing I was going to ask you was about the abstraction component. Because I feel like that project takes those flaws and the weird things that are happening with film and kind of meshes it together with the more narrative kind of stuff you were doing.
DC: Yes. This project, the What The Luck one, I'm still into portraiture, but I was feeling a little bit disconnected. But I was really using portraiture as a way to project what I wanted to say.
RC: Mhm.
DC: Not that that’s necessarily bad because there's a lot of artists that do that, but I didn't think I was being fair to the people I was photographing if I was doing that. And when I got into the What The Luck project, it was my first project that I received a grant for. And I had a limited amount of time to deliver, I think it was a month or so.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And I did this... I was in the countryside where I grew up, and I was with my friend and we were thinking, "Okay, maybe we can create a narrative out of this."
RC: Mhm.
DC: But we didn't really know what it was going to look like, especially because I was thinking of souping the film afterwards, which is where the abstract component comes in. And I just got the photos I think about a week before the deadline.
RC: Nice, [laughs].
DC: Yeah. And I was like, "Okay, now I'm going to make something out of this." And once I made it, I realized that there was a narrative element that was going on.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And there's a colour story because I shot three rolls of film. And each roll came a different colour.
RC: Mmm.
DC: And each roll was also a different person type of way because I shot one person in A roll, in B in C roll.
RC: Oh wow.
DC: So I really felt like I could make this story out of these quote unquote characters because we weren't really, how do I say this? We weren't really creating something that happened.
RC: Yeah.
DC: Like it was not documentary photography.
RC: For sure.
DC: Which is still...that's the debate there, but just [laughs], being more black and white.
RC: I can see two colours. What were the three colours of film? Like, the blue and the yellow...
DC: Yeah. I…I think the first one was yellow, in which I souped with I think some herbal tea, I can't remember which one at this point anymore.
RC: Nice.
DC: And the blue one was with beetroot kombucha.
RC: Mmm.
DC: Because my mom makes tons of kombucha -
RC: Nice.
DC: - so I just have it laying around. And the other one was also with some type of kombucha, but it got ruined during processing. So I didn't get to use that one. And I'm think, "Okay, what can I do with this?" And I got the blue and the yellow one. And I was like, "Okay. Maybe I can make this story." But I also am not so keen on the idea of just delivering something nowadays that is very, it's very transparent, like you see it and you know what it is.
RC: Mmm. I think this feels more like a memory if that makes sense.
DC: Mhm, yes.
RC: And like you said, this is imaginary or made up, but the colours, you're right. They do make the narrative. And I don't really know why, I like that you saw that and ran with it. 'Cause it seems very intentional to me. [Laughs].
DC: Thank you. [Laughs]. I appreciate it because it was in the post-processing but not when I got the film the first time. But yeah, I felt like I have these two characters and I can make something out of it. And I think it really depends on more of what you or whoever else is going to be looking at the photos than what I think they are. But mostly my main idea was to have these two characters in some type of relationship. You can just go with what you think is best. Is it romantic, is it a platonic relationship?
RC: Mhm.
DC: But see it developing through time. And my main idea would be that if you started from the first to last image, you'd see one narrative. And if you started from the last and gone back to the first one, it'd be a different narrative.
RC: Mhm.
DC: But the main point, like, the climax, if you will, would be the third image, which is the one where it's green, it's when they first like... not meet but connect. 'Cause you can see both of their gazes and that's like the two colours melting together basically. But yeah, it was pretty intense because I was so anxious having little time and messaging my mentor like, “Petrija please help me, I don't know what to do!"
RC: I think that's really cool though. And now you're in two residencies, and like, this work you made within a month. It feels like your practice is starting to become very project-based in an interesting way. Do you feel like you have one consistent practice and these residencies are like channeling it or like, these are very much prompts for you to make a project?
DC: I think I'm more of a project-based person.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
DC: Just…I don't know why. But for example, if I'm doing a reading, I start taking notes. And after a few minutes I've come up with a project, even if I don't make it at some point in the future, I just have it there.
RC: Mhm.
DC: It's very hard for me to just look at an image and see it standing alone and know how to work with that. But I appreciate people who can because I think that's much more difficult.
RC: It's interesting to see how you work and like, being under time pressure.
DC: Mmm, yeah. I feel like with the Roundtable Residency, it's a shorter one. It's a month and a half I believe?
RC: Mhm.
DC: So it helps me because I then have to fulfill some type of deadline.
RC: Mmm.
DC: Because there's critique groups, and at some point there’s going to be an exhibition and there's studio visits. So I feel pressured but not in a bad way, to deliver work.
RC: Gotcha, gotcha.
DC: Because I really... I really like feedback.
RC: I love feedback. Don't time to the community, are you surrounded by a lot of other self-taught artists where you are you are?
DC: Umm, not really. [Both laugh]. I do have my friends who aren't artists, and I do have a few friends who study art in a more institutional way. So they go to art school. But here, I feel like, I'm not going to answer for Brazil because it's a huge country.
RC: For sure.
DC: But in Belo Horizonte and the people that I have access to, most of the artists I know study in a college, in a university, art.
RC: Mhm.
DC: But it's very focused on painting and drawing, and not as much on other types of art, so sculpture and photography.
RC: Hmm.
DC: I don't think I have any self-taught artist friends at all.
RC: Interesting.
DC: Yeah.
RC: And then your friends who’ve gone to school, are those people that you're texting and you're in conversation with? Or do you feel like you're having a different conversation?
DC: I think we have different conversations. I feel something that's very weird but also interesting to think about now... I mean nowadays, I'm saying nowadays too much, [both laugh]. But it's something that I think about a lot is that I first started to think about my practice as a practice, and think about the work that I'm doing as art when I was in school.
RC: Mhm.
DC: Which was not technically an art school. And I started to just try and find community in trying to bond with people over art as a whole.
RC: Mhm.
DC: But it was also right when quarantine started.
RC: Yeah.
DC: So I just gone back to the internet and trying to find people to talk about it with.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And most of it were in these international spaces, and mostly American people and Canadian people. So I feel like even the way, it's very weird to me, but even the way that I talk about my practice, I almost think in English rather than Portuguese.
RC: Huh.
DC: Because I have only been, not only, mostly been having conversations about it in English.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
DC: So it's hard for me sometimes to just conceptualize and be able to communicate.
RC: Wow. So do you write about your work in Portuguese as well? Or you're exclusively writing about you art in English?
DC: I don't write in Portuguese at all.
RC: Oh wow!
DC: Yeah, usually no. I don't know why I'm saying usually because I'm always writing in English. And it's very funny to me because what happens usually is I’m either thinking about something and then I have an idea. Thinking of something completely different and then I have an idea and go down and write in my notebook. And I write it in English. Or I'm reading a text, which usually is an English as well because the internet, [both laugh]. And then I just write quotes or something that inspires me or that just made my brain tingle when I read it. And then I write it in English and make comments in English. Even though it's not my first language, yeah. I don't feel like... I don't know. I don't feel like that really interferes with the end result because my work is mostly about identity, and Latin American identity and Brazilian identity and all the other stuff. But even though the subtext or the text itself is about that, the images aren't necessarily.
RC: Mhm.
DC: Now because I'm more into working with abstract images or abstract-ish...
RC: I was just curious. Also in terms of like, reading online, whether your social media content is mostly English or mostly Portuguese. Just yeah, I feel like I'm in such a bubble, just like English being my first language and my French not being that good. But I was wondering if you wanted to talk a bit more about the baths that you were doing. 'Cause I feel like that's really important to your abstract process, and also thinking about film in general.
DC: Yeah. I kind of started... I feel like most of my practice started out of me trying to respond to something that was happening in my life. But at the time, I was doing only portraiture work. And I was very much... I was very much drained with the whole grant application processes –
RC: Yeah.
DC: - and applying for exhibitions and stuff. Which in retrospect, I shouldn't be because I was six months in photography, so it doesn't really make a lot of sense for me to be this obsessive about it. But at the time I was very upset with that.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And felt very disconnected. But photography was also like, it still is this huge part of my life. And I didn't want to make it, have it become something that I don't like anymore because of external approval or something like that. And I was starting to look into alternative processes. And I saw someone I know from my community here in Brazil was doing film soups. And I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." And what it basically is is you cook the film after you shot it. You can do it before, but I don't recommend it because you can ruin your camera.
RC: True.
DC: So do it after you shot it. So I basically just shoot something photograph something I want to. And what's that part is done, I go ahead and put the film, quite literally, in a pan with water and different ingredients to just make it look different. And that's basically how I was going about it when I first started. I just wanted to not look like a canon portrait.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And I started to really enjoy the process, especially because it kind of... I'm just realizing this, but it kind of just brought me back to my first times shooting where I would ruin the film by mistake.
RC: Nice.
DC: But now I was doing on purpose.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And then I started to think why this process was so interesting to me and how I could start using it in my practice outside of just wanting to have fun with my photos.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And most of my work is nowadays I say that it's mostly about the implications of existing in a dissident body.
RC: Mhm.
DC: Which I like to use this specific word or expression, "dissident body," because I feel like it's a huge umbrella. And I'm a big fan of intersectionality. So I don't really see interpreting someone or myself as just one thing. I feel like there's a lot of intersecting identities. And I like to think how they impact in our lives. And seeing, because if you're even a little bit marginalized, I don't think there's such a thing as a little bit marginalized. But you know, if you're marginalized in one way, it's already a lot of violence.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And thinking of what I was doing with the film because it's such a process where I'm almost destroying it, and sometimes I'm destroying it. And then I have to take care of the aftermath and deal with that.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And how that looked a lot like, I hate to say this, but like the human experience, in a way.
RC: For sure.
DC: Because... we, I'm saying "we" but also as an umbrella thing... go through a lot of stuff and then we try to pick up the pieces and move on. And I started to see my rolls almost like little people because I'm always shooting... not little people. I started to see my roles as people because I usually shot portraits. And these photos I was taking up my friends and the people that I was being commissioned to, we're always restricted into the canister. Then I was inflicting this damage and violence and then taking care of that canister.
RC: Hmm. It almost feels like kind of a healing thing, like much as you are going through this violent process of like, cooking the film, it also feels very loving and kind of like witchy in a kind of way. The chamomile that you add, chamomile is a very specific healing kind of tea and herb. Is there any meaning behind any of the ingredients you're adding? And yeah, reflecting on it being healing or medicine?
DC: Yeah, at first I didn't really think about it. I was just trying to have fun with the film and see how it looks like afterwards. But I was in a group critique, and a friend of mine, Hyacinth, they asked me the same question basically. Is it "What are you putting in your soup? Does it matter?" And I was like, "Oh, it could matter. It doesn't right now, but it could." And afterwards in the What The Luck project, I was shooting my friends and I photographed one of my friends Luiza, which is I think the main character in a way.
RC: Mhm.
DC: She's the one that you mostly see in the images. And she's very much into tea. And I was like, "Oh, I'll soup her images with tea because that's something she likes."
RC: Aww.
DC: Yes, I really enjoy it. But also I use these base ingredients every time.
RC: Mhm.
DC: Just so I have... I don't have control, but I have a little bit of control.
RC: Yeah like consistency.
DC: Yes. And then I started to think about my other friends and what they mean... And not what they mean but what they like and what food or what other ingredients they relate to or they like the most just so it becomes a little bit more personal.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And nowadays, I think for the past... I wanna say 4 months? I have been only shooting my home. And then I started to use ingredients that I have inside my house as well that I normally use. So I'm trying to be more mindful of it, just to have this extra layer of meaning in a way. Even if people don't really care, I care. [Both laugh].
RC: Cool. And do you see it as a healing thing? I feel like the cooking, it does feel very destructive, but cooking is such a loving act too. I was wondering what your thoughts are behind the process.
DC: Yes, I don't know if I would say healing.
RC: Mmm.
DC: But it's kind of a rollercoaster moment. Because I first photograph and then I just let the film sit untouched for weeks in a row. I don't know why. I just don't want to deal with it right away. And then I go and prepare myself kind of psychologically to cook because I know it's very time sensitive and it really depends on how much stuff I put in. So how much salt I put in, how much lemon juice, because they are the most destructive things that I usually add. And then I know that I have to be watching so it's kind of, I want to say it is like, but it's kind of watching a little kid.
RC: Huh. [Laughs].
DC: Because you do have to pay attention. I have done so many mistakes as of now, but you have to pay a lot of attention and just stir it, and then you have to rinse it. And then I feel like the healing and more careful process comes in because then I really need to just diminish a little bit of the damage I’ve done.
RC: Mhm.
DC: So it's more of, now I'm taking care of you, but I was just beating you before.
RC: Yeah, yeah.
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This week’s podcast recommendation is hosted by curator and art historian Nadia Kurd, The Profiles on Practice podcast is a five-part podcast spotlighting the practices of women of colour artists in Canada. Presented by Femme Art Review this series interviews Soheila Esfahani, Shawna Davis, Meera Sethi, Christina Battle and Yen-Chao Lin.
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RC: And then in terms of the photography that you're doing now, like you photographing your family in lockdown and photographing from the same room, do you feel like that's changed how you're approaching these images?
DC: I think it changed but not until I realized it did, if it makes sense.
RC: Mmm.
DC: Because I spent most of 2020 in my parents' house in the countryside.
RC: Yeah.
DC: I think I spent roughly eight months there, so a lot of my time there. And it was pretty isolating itself because of isolation.
RC: Yup.
DC: And then just not being around my friends and my partner and the people that I'm more accustomed to seeing now because I have lived where I live in Bela Horizonte for almost six years.
RC: Okay.
DC: So I was a little bit disconnected to the city itself. And the way that I started to kind of, not cope but cope with that was taking walks around my neighbourhood. And I'm just... I love white girl culture -
RC: [Laughs].
DC: - so I'm very obsessed with musicals. And I was very much into Hamilton at the time.
RC: Nice.
DC: Yeah, so just performing in my room. And I had a bunch of Polaroid film at the time, and I was like, "Okay, maybe I can make something out of that." And I just did Meus Dias with that.
RC: Mhm.
DC: Which... It's pretty forward. It was just me trying document what I was going through. And right by my parents' house in my walks, I noticed there was this house that was going to be demolished.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And I went ahead and documented that as well. And kind of tried to make... how do I say this, kind of a connection between both me and the house in a way. And then I came back here where I'm now, in my own place, and I was not very comfortable with going outside. I'm still not very much.
RC: Yeah.
DC: I only got my second vaccine this week. But still I'm not as comfortable. So I felt... and I also felt like, not that I needed to create something but I missed creating stuff.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And I started to think, "Okay, what I can do from my home?" And what are the connections between isolation and the dissident bodies and different realities and whatnot. And even experimentation, and then came the project that I'm doing for Roundtable.
RC: And the other residency too, like going back to the internet and living in different realities. What was the name of the...GatherTown. Do you want to talk about that residency and being on that platform?
DC: Yes, I can. So it's a residency, I think it's their second program now. It's called Slant Projects. And it's run by Theodor, which I love, who I love. And they're like super welcoming. And they've tried to make a digital residency, but not digital because of COVID.
RC: Yes, yes.
DC: But digital to be more kind of... not inclusive, I'm missing the right word. But like, to accommodate more people with different backgrounds and live in different countries. So most of us aren't even in the same continent.
RC: I love that!
DC: Yes, me too. Especially... I'm very happy about that. Because I feel like also not to [inaudible], but being in a lot of these American and Canadian spaces, even though I'm very grateful to be there, a lot of the time it's very white. And I can say white, caucasian, whatever you prefer, but like, being from Latin America, and even though I myself am perceived as white a lot of the times, just the culture background, it's very different.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
DC: And it's... After a few encounters, I was pretty tired.
RC: Yeah.
DC: And being in a space where people understand this without you having to explain it -
RC: Yeah.
DC: - it's very good. So I recommend it. Yes, and I feel like, I... I don't know how to phrase this so I'm just going to say it.
RC: Mhm.
DC: But I feel like, for example, my experience in Canadian spaces have been for the most part very good and very helpful and I'm very grateful.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And like, the Roundtable Residency has been very welcoming. I've met you through there.
RC: Woohoo!
DC: And... yes. And my first contact like, in a more educational way, was through BIPOC's Photography Mentorship, which is in Canada. It's based in Canada, founded by Heather. And then I have a show next year at Gallery 44.
RC: So cool!
DC: Yeah, so I've gained a lot of opportunities and I've made a lot of friends and I'm very grateful. But sometimes... I've had a few experiences where I didn't realize that people that were speaking to me were being kind of bigoted.
RC: Mmm.
DC: Until I told someone else about it –
RC: Yup.
DC: - and they said, "Oh, that's not okay." [Both laugh].
RC: Oh no. But I was wondering also as an emerging artist, like somebody who's just starting out, if there were issues that you ran into that you've gained a lot of experience from. Or that you wish you had known like a year... like two years ago now. [Both laugh].
DC: Mmm, I don't know. Like, I've ran into some things that I don't think... even if someone warned me, I don't know if I wouldn't have done it the same way.
RC: Mmm.
DC: Just because of, especially as an emerging artist and coming from, I hate this expression but like, a developing country, there aren't as many options and as many opportunities. So you try your best, at least I do.
RC: Yeah.
DC: But I feel like I would have been less stressed about a few things. A few encounters and a few zoom calls. Just because I wouldn't prepare myself as much or try to just be the best I can because I already know this person is going to, right from the moment they hear the accent they're just going to have this completely different image of me.
RC: Aww.
DC: Yeah but I feel like something's would be more helpful to know such as don't waste all your energy in grant applications and exhibition applications if you have only been doing this for a year.
RC: [Laughs].
DC: Because it's more likely that you're not gonna get them. And if you do congratulations, you deserve it. But...
RC: You got so much practice though! I feel like you're probably a better grant writer than I am and I've been doing this for longer.
DC: I have a lot of practice, but I wish... I'm very grateful for the practice because I have like 50 something Google docs –
RC: Oh my gosh, nice.
DC: - that I can just nitpick and choose what I can use. But I feel like I wouldn't give as much... I wouldn't care as much about the notes if that makes sense.
RC: Like rejection was something you had to learn to deal with.
DC: Yeah, and I think it's... I feel like it's not as available advice because like I said, I don't know if I would've done differently.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
DC: But I feel like you should just either... you, I don't know, I'm just speaking with someone that doesn't exist, [laughs]. You should either just get used to the fact that once you're starting out and if you don't have as many resources as others do, you just not get as many opportunities.
RC: Mhm.
DC: Or you can also make your own opportunities if you'd like. I don't feel like, I appreciate a lot of people who do that.
RC: Mhm.
DC: Like Theo did for Slant Projects, and I know other people that did it as well. But there's a lot of labour that goes into that. And you shouldn't feel pressured to just create these spaces for you. I don't know, it's difficult.
RC: I totally understand and like, that was something that one of my teachers told me in art school like, create opportunities for yourself, but it is so exhausting and like, unfortunately / fortunately, I have become one of the people in my community who makes opportunities.
DC: Go you. [Both laugh].
RC: Oops. But it in is exhausting in a specific way. But we do need those people in the community.
DC: Mhm.
RC: It's just... there's not a lot of support for those people either.
DC: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do still take a lot of advantage of the fact that most of the things are online nowadays. And when I started I was quote unquote lucky to be able to do that because of COVID most things went online. So I don't know how my ... I don't know, career would look like now if I hadn't taken advantage of those things. But it's also very tiring.
RC: Yeah. Yeah it really is. And you're an international artist, good for you. But also you're talking across time zones and continents. How do you navigate all that? Are you just out applying to every single country, or do you have specific connections with specific communities?
DC: I mostly apply to things that are English based or Portuguese based.
RC: Mhm.
DC: So the English that I speak and I feel comfortable just articulating myself in a way. But most of the opportunities I've gotten are in English speaking countries. So Canada... I got one or two in the US, and the residency that I'm doing alongside with Roundtable is international.
RC: Mhm.
DC: So it's kind of English based as a whole, because everyone is in a different country and speak different languages.
RC: Mhm.
DC: So I feel like I'm mostly look for that. And then I make... I don't even like to call connections but I make friends –
RC: Mhm.
DC: - and then we let each other know about things that are going on. Just even like shit talk stuff.
RC: [Laughs], amazing.
DC: But that's mostly how I hear about things. I either hear from friends or I'm like subscribed to 50 different newsletters.
RC: Yuuup, yuuup.
DC: They're very helpful.
RC: So helpful. Thank your newsletter writing people, you do a good job, [laughs].
DC: They literally saved my CV.
RC: I think that that's so cool, you're taking on these different projects and running with the prompts and stuff. For Roundtable, the prompt for it was "risk." for the other residencies that you're doing, is it more open or are you working within their themes?
DC: The Roundtable one was risk, and I was lucky in a way because I'm doing film's process for the most part, so it's a risky process. And I got to play that into my application. But Slant Projects was more open.
RC: Okay.
DC: And was really looking for artists that are based in different locations and that have some type of relationship, either allyship or being themselves queer people.
RC: Mhm.
DC: Because it's founded by Theo who is a non-binary transmasculine person. And it's important to just have this conversation for them, which I agree. And that was basically it. And because my work, it's like I said about dissidency, it speaks a lot to themes of queerness and womanhood and just being racialized in different spaces and how you're read in these spaces.
RC: Do you feel like that has to do with your photography as well? Do you think that's why it's your medium of choice, this idea of representation? Or it's just the thing that you fell in love with you think?
DC: I think a little bit of both, because when I first started, like I said, I had no idea what it would become.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And how much time and effort and money it would take from me.
RC: For sure.
DC: So I just really like the process, and I felt like, okay, I want to make work about this.
RC: Mmm.
DC: And what medium can I use? And I know photography a little bit. So let's try and make it work because I feel like I could try and learn other mediums by myself, but I'm still in school and I work. I have been working a nine to five job, I will be until next month, I just quit. So I didn't really have that time anymore.
RC: For sure.
DC: So I'm just not stuck with photography because I love it, but I feel like there's still a lot that I want to learn.
RC: Mhm.
DC: And a lot now that I know about alternative processes and how I can just make the medium more sensible in a way to what I'm communicating or trying to at least. So it's kind of a little bit of both I think. I don't think my brain really goes into other art forms as much. I do go into writing.
RC: Mmm.
DC: But more in a way that I can just make sense of what I'm thinking. Like, I used to do a lot of journaling in the past, just for therapy, [laughs].
RC: Fair.
DC: And I really enjoyed like, when I went to... when I read what I wrote, I was like, "Oh, I was thinking this or feeling this and I didn’t really…I wasn't really aware." And I still do that a little bit. And then use that, not as research, but just kind of to ground myself.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
DC: And see not what I can make of it but if that's something that I should still be thinking about, that feeling or something that had happened. And when I read other people's texts, like I've said, I just write the quotes, and then I kind of create this mumbo jumbo, I don’t know, of my own thoughts on top of that in coloured pencils.
RC: Nice.
DC: So I can differentiate what I'm thinking. And then that goes either into my photography or I just talked to him about it and then I process it like that.
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RC: Thanks for listening to Hopping the Fence, a podcast dedicated to the fringes of the Canadian art scene.
If you have an artist that you would like to hear interviewed, would like to correct / fact check a past episode, or would like to chat, feel free to send me a message on Instagram @hoppingthefence, or by email at rebeccaecasalino@gmail.com. Thanks to the OCAD Student Union for your financial support. Thank you to all of our Patreons for your ongoing support. It truly does help me avoid burnout and keeps this podcast rolling. If you would like to support Hopping the Fence, please visit our Patreon to subscribe. Check out the show notes for more details. If you can’t donate, no worries. Thanks for taking the time to listen.
Audio editing for Hopping the Fence by Emily Reimer. Original artwork by Alex Gregory, and original music by Jessica Price Eisner.
Thank you so much, bye!
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