Jocelyne Junker
Hopping the Fence Transcript – #16, Jocelyne Junker
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Hopping the Fence – S2E6: Jocelyne Junker
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RC: Hello, I’m Rebecca Casalino, and this is Hopping the Fence, a podcast dedicated to talking to artists on the fringes of the Canadian art scene.
Jocelyne Junker is a Métis artist born in Saskatchewan. Her practice explores how photography and painting can become entangled in performative gestures that affect the formulation of self-identity. Through photography, she questions representation and engages with constructions of identity in the public sphere by creating a visual language that co-opts media and challenges its original context. She received her BFA from Emily Carr University of Art + Design, in 2018. She’s currently on the board of Access Gallery and resides in the unceded territories of the xʷməθkʷəyəm (Musqueam), Sḵwxwú7mesh (Squamish) and səlilwətaɬ (Tsleil- Waututh) Nations.
Our conversation was recorded in Hamilton within Treaty 3 territory on the ancestral land of the Haudenosaunee and Anishinaabe nations under the Dish With One Spoon wampum agreement.
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RC: Hey Jocelyne!
JJ: Hello.
RC: How's it goin'?
JJ: It's going good. How are you?
RC: I'm good, I'm good. Just drinking my coffee, sweating through this Canadian summer.
JJ: Oh my god, yeah. [Both laugh].
RC: Where are you right now?
JJ: I am...well I'm in so-called Vancouver, and I am in my apartment at my kitchen table. It's like ... I'm gonna be very descriptive. It's a 1950's diner-style table.
RC: Oooh.
JJ: With a nice red kind of marbly top. And then I have a beautiful bouquet of flowers my friend gave me sitting in front of me.
RC: Aw, that sounds so lovely!
JJ: It's kind of uh...we went through a little bit of a rainy period recently, which we really needed.
RC: Mhm.
JJ: But it's kind of a partly cloudy day. So the sun's comin' out, kinda going a way a little bit now but it's a nicer cooler day for us.
RC: Ugh, that sounds ideal.
JJ: Yeah. It's been hot. We did get another advisory warning about heat this week, so...
RC: Yeah, my weather app just updated... I guess my phone updated last night. And now it has air quality warnings on it, like it measures the air quality.
JJ: Yeah.
RC: I'm like, "Wow."
JJ: Yeah, it's somethin'!
RC: The post-apocalyptic world that we live in.
JJ: Yeah, it really feels that way sometimes honestly.
RC: Yeah, yeah. But you've been a busy bee these past two weeks. I was just wondering if you wanted to talk a bit about the projects that you've been doing and the work that you installed at the Art Gallery at Evergreen.
JJ: Yeah, okay. So it's basically like a little incubator program that I got into at the beginning of May. And it was just a series of artists. We did a lot of workshops via Zoom, and then we were given studio space throughout the month of June.
RC: Sick!
JJ: Yeah, so it was like, a really good time. I just used it as an opportunity to start experimenting again because I feel like I really didn't have the time and space to do that. So one thing I've been super interested in especially in my practice is... I've always been really interested in textiles, so I've been trying to find the intersection of photography and textiles. And I've wanted to rug tuft. One of the frustrating things about watching things go on on social media during the pandemic it's all of the people who have gotten into rug tufting as a trend.
RC: [Laughs].
JJ: Because I've wanted to do that for years. [Laughs].
RC: Oh my gosh.
JJ: So I used the opportunity to like, actually put some stuff together and do it for real.
RC: Mhm.
JJ: So I was very excited about doing that.
RC: Yes, so the frame of the work that you had, that was rug tufted then?
JJ: It is.
RC: Sick.
JJ: So it basically feels Like a rug. That whole thing is just fabric.
RC: Ooh.
JJ: It's fabric and then it's like stretched on to the wall.
RC: Oh, I didn't realize.
JJ: Yeah. So I've been wanting to do that for a while. 'Cause I have seen recently...like, I feel like in a lot of peers in Vancouver especially in photography, of like, really going for crazy or outrageous frames.
RC: [Laughs].
JJ: I think there's also this aspect that I wanted to explore to where it's like, "Why are you just doing that print? Let's do something new with the print." So I also printed on the fabric too.
RC: Huh. I love that. And your work involves a lot of self-portraiture and this is one of them. I was wondering why you use the clown motif, 'cause the work is kind of a self portrait of you with the classic clown makeup and then this beautiful thick, tufted frame. It's kind of a pattern of clown clothes. I was just wondering what you were thinking when you made that.
JJ: Yeah, so I've done a series of clown self portraits throughout the years.
RC: Mhm.
JJ: This is the fourth one now.
RC: Nice.
JJ: Which... there's... I honestly feel like a lot of my experience... it must be part of my upbringing. But a lot of it I put through the lens of humour, just to make it somewhat easier to digest or just to not dwell on how traumatic or sad some things can be. And then I also like... it's funny, I was thinking about this this morning. I fully had an existential crisis in art school being like, "Every day I wake up and no matter what, I'm always performing. I'm always performing a version of myself.” So I went on a long journey of trying to figure out what performance is the truest version of myself? And it ended on clowns.
RC: [Laughs]. And is that because your clowns are kind of like the sad, dark clown. And it makes me think of, I don't know if you know Pagliacci, that kind of...
JJ: Yeah.
RC: Yeah, are you referencing that, or is it just like, you feel like you're the sad clown or do you want to expand on that a bit?
JJ: Oh, I totally...it's totally...a large portion of it comes from... I don't know if it's specifically in the comic book Watchmen or if it's a joke that's from outside of it, but there is the joke that Rorshach tells in that, where he's like, "A guy who is sad and done with life goes and talks to his doctor and tells him about his feelings. And the doctor is like, "I have a prescription for you. Go see the great clown whatever, and it’ll cheer you right up." And then he goes, "I am the clown."
RC: [Laughs], aww.
JJ: Yeah.
RC: Yeah.
JJ: And that's how I kind of feel. I do feel like a lot of the time that, I don't know, I can often go through humour to cheer myself up. An often I'm the only person who can really do that in my life.
RC: The only reason I know about Pagliacci is because of this podcast Hilarious World of Depression. And their theme song, one of the lines is "Oh, I'm Pagliacci." And it's all these... the podcast is all these comedians talking about their depression and their mental health. And they feel the same way too. And when Robin Williams died, I know a lot of people were like, "Oh, the happiest, funniest people in your life are sometimes the saddest." So like, this idea of the sad clown is something that has, I don't know, always existed it seems like, in pop culture.
JJ: Yeah, I think so too. I think it's like totally a specific archetype. Yeah, it's been kind of identified with - 'cause that was the other thing about being surrounded in a community... I moved away from Saskatchewan to Vancouver. And being very entrenched in an art community, it was kind of interesting how I have a lot of the same reference points but like, I was really into comedy in high school.
RC: [Laughs].
JJ: Like, I listened to so many comedy podcasts. I listened to like every episode of The Nerdist forever.
RC: Nice.
JJ: And I knew of all these different comedians. And then I got to art school and I was like, "Wait... not only do a lot of you not have a sense of humour at all, but you don't know like any comedy. Like you don't enjoy any comedy." And I think comedy can be a very transformative, critical act when done properly.
RC: For sure, for sure. Yeah, I know... right away I go to Bo Burnham's Inside 'cause we're all still locked up here. But I was the same way in high school. Just for Laughs was always on my TV. Every Sunday my parents were always, that was what was on our TV the entire time. And stand-up is very... I feel like it's Canadian culture, but apparently not in Vancouver.
JJ: Yeah, I don't think so. Which is funny, but I guess it's... in the time that I've moved here, they have... I miss it right now. Every February they'd do Just for Laughs North West.
RC: Yeah.
JJ: So it's kind of like a...in the last couple years I finally started going to a bunch of shows.
RC: Sick.
JJ: I'm like sad it's not able to happen.
RC: Aww.
JJ: But yeah, I think of Bo Burnham immediately. I was a big fan of his in high school. And then I saw Make Happy a lot in 2015 I guess that was. And it really changed my perspective a lot how like, he's changed my perspective a lot on how I interact with the internet.
RC: For sure!
JJ: So...which, I think that's the big thing. And I think of like Hannah Gadsby too, and...
RC: Mmm.
JJ: There are some really transformative... and I think there's a lot of critical thought that goes into comedy that people don't really consider.
RC: Yeah, it's a very critical practice.
JJ: Yeah.
RC: And it's writing too, which is so hard. [Laughs].
JJ: Yeah, majorly. So I feel like a lot of people just put off comedy as funny make-em-ups, but it's skill. And it needs to be really smart, so like, really consider and practice that. I also was just like, “How can I incorporate that into my art practice?” Mainly because I do, I feel like I have a sense of humour and I want to be present in my work. And I feel like it's very few and far between. I feel like a lot of humour one would see in like an institution or a gallery space would be one where it's kind of one where you don't fully laugh, it's kind of just like a "hah," an exhale through the nose.
RC: A polite chuckle.
JJ: Exactly. Yeah, so I'm like, that's one major interest I have, especially in art.
RC: And pop culture is just so heavy within your work. Do you want to talk a bit about growing up and what kind of influences are still hanging out in your practice?
JJ: Oh yeah. So I feel like Tumblr is very influential in terms of why pop culture is so present, 'cause I feel like it's my main reference point.
RC: Mmm.
JJ: And I feel like that mainly comes from... so I grew up in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, which is the most northern city. It's very kind of isolated. The closest other major city is Saskatoon, which is an hour and a half away on the highway. And I felt very...othered. I think that also comes from being Métis. The kind of most simplistic way to put it is you don't feel white enough for the white kids, you don't feel Native enough for the Native kids. You feel kind of in-between, off on your own.
RC: Mhm.
JJ: And I discovered the internet at probably too early of an age, [both laugh]. My parents...bless my parents. They had me and my brother when they were a little bit older, and my brother was kind of a wild child, so when it came to me, they were just like, "As long as you don't get in trouble and you go to school, do your thing." So I had a lot of unsupervised internet access. Which is good and bad.
RC: Yeah.
JJ: So yeah, I think that the one major influence in that time period, I joined Tumblr in 2009.
RC: Yeah that is pretty early for Tumblr too.
JJ: Yeah, I was there.
RC: [Laughs].
JJ: It was like...so I spent so much of my time on there because I finally...I just finally felt like I had found something that was interesting, and then I also felt like I found people I could talk to.
RC: For sure, for sure.
JJ: But I think a major part of Tumblr's culture... and I deleted my Tumblr back in 2015, which I regret a little bit. I wish I could go back and look at how ridiculous I was.
RC: [Laughs].
JJ: A lost thing. But I think just so much of that internet community was also influenced by pop culture, and I got really into... I think the main point of access that really led to that was British television.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
JJ: So I watched a lot of panel shows, I watched a lot of British stand-ups. And I think that also comes along with being Canadian too. I think the sensibility is really similar.
RC: Yeah, like I want a lot of British, Australian even New Zealand TV.
JJ: Yeah. It's good, it's good stuff too. The really major ones were like... there was a panel show called Never Mind the Buzzcocks, which was like music-based, which I was super into music too, so that was a huge point of entry. And then there were also all these references they were making to the comedy and I was like, "Ooh, what's that?" And so it kind of just spiderwebbed out, and then I all of a sudden had this crazy reference point that like, nobody around me in my high school had. And I went to a small high school. My graduating class was like 22 people.
RC: Wow.
JJ: So like... yeah. It's funny, an ongoing theme in my life is very split personalities, and... especially at that time, there’s the online version of me and then there’s the real life version of me and I feel like I had to change and adapt to social situations. And I feel like that's just...I mean, I feel like they've gotten closer as I've gotten older, but that was hard to navigate at that time. Especially when you're like... I don't know.
RC: Yeah.
JJ: I just remember one time and English class, we were talking about Greek mythology, and then the teacher was like, talking about the Tree of Life in Greek mythology. And then I was like, "Oh yeah, Yggdrasil." And then he was like, "How do you know that?" And I was like, "QI with Stephen Fry."
RC: So funny.
JJ: I was like, I know, I know.
RC: I know all of this.
JJ: Yeah, exactly. But I do think like... and Tumblr was the first time I think I'd really been exposed to super fine art.
RC: Mhm.
JJ: A lot of that was wildly distributed and made available, which I think really kind of led to the road I've gone now, so...
RC: Yeah, is that how you started taking an interest in photography?
JJ: Oh, that was strangely earlier than that.
RC: Ohh.
JJ: When I was like 12 I think, I talked to my parents into buying me a Kodak point-and-shoot for Christmas. And I was actually on this website. It's like super kind of defunct now, like barely exists the way it used to. It was called Buzznet. It was Buzznet, and then the sister site to it was also called Friends or Enemies.
RC: [Laughs].
JJ: Which, if there's any Fallout Boy fans listening, that's how I found it. 'Cause I was a big fan of Fall Out Boy and The Academy Is and Cobra Starship.
RC: Nice.
JJ: And they were all posting on there, and they would do these photo challenges. And I was like, "Oh, this is fun!" And so I started getting into it that way. I think when I was 13, I did like a 365 project and completed it and like completed it when I was 14.
RC: Wow!
JJ: Yeah. So that started all the way back then too. So that's kind of funny in its own way.
RC: Yeah that's nutty. Then when the pandemic started you also gave yourself also an everyday project, if you wanted to talk a bit about that.
JJ: Yeah, that's actually, oh my god, I've never made that connection before. [Both laugh]. So... okay, this actually combines a lot of the things we've already talked about. Because back in February of 2020, one of the last shows I went to was a live podcast taping of How Did This Get Made? Which is a beautiful podcast. If anybody wants to have a good entry point is the episode on Drop Dead Fred. You don't have to watched the movies, but that one... that is a beautiful episode. [Both laugh]. Yeah, so I went to How Did This Get Made. I really like Jason Mantzoukas, there's just something about his chaos that really jives with me. It's hard to explain and people look at me like I'm crazy when I talk about it, but... so... when everything started going down, it was like March 10th to 12th I feel like, when everything really shut down in Vancouver.
RC: Yeah.
JJ: And I was working at a gallery called Franc Gallery, and it was kind of a small commercial gallery. And I would just sit there for five hours with not much to do if nobody came in.
RC: Mhm.
JJ: And I was just feeling anxious and I was like... I love how Jason Mantzoukas looks, I think he's like a really specific type of looking person.
RC: Mhm.
JJ: And I appreciate that. So I was like, “Well I never know what to draw, so I'm just gonna start drawing him.” I think it was March 10th and I drew him, the day I came back I drew him, and then the last day I went to work, I drew him again. And I was like, "You know what? I'm just going to keep drawing him until this thing is over." When I was optimistic that it was going to be over in like a month.
RC: Oh my god.
JJ: And oh, how things have changed. And so...'cause that's my main problem: I love drawing and painting, I never know what to draw or paint.
RC: It's a challenge.
JJ: It's like a real issue. Yeah, so I was like, "I'm just gonna keep doing it." I started doing it as a joke and then next thing I knew I started an Instagram page for it. And I was like, "I'm just going to keep doing it." And then finally around... I think there's 70 or 75 posts on that Instagram. And by that time, it was really just like, "Okay, I’ve done this. I'm running out of source photos to draw him."
RC: [Laughs].
JJ: And it kinda just started becoming a thing where I was like, "Kay, I have ideas for other things now and it's biting into that time, so I'm gonna put a pin in it because it's very clear this isn't an ending anytime soon." And then also like, you know, some days were a real challenge. Some days it came along really easy and then some days it was like, "Wow, I cannot nail his likeness if my life depended on it today." And I just didn't want to post anything and I was like, "Why am I holding myself to this pressure?" And then it culminated in a...'cause I joked, I joked very early on, I was like, “The way this project is gonna end is if I do a Rembrandt-style painting of Jason Mantzoukas.” But then a better idea came along, so I decided to paint him... it's based off of an image that Nick Kroll posted with him in it. Him and two makeup artists are sitting in front of a… what I imagine is a reproduction of Judith Slaying Holofernes. Or holding the head of Holofernes, I think that's the real...
RC: Oh my gosh.
JJ: So I was like, "Oh, I like that, I like that a lot." And I was like, and I kept thinking about it and I was like, "You know, this is kind of like the perfect metaphor for an end to this series." Because, you know, one of the conversations I had with some of my friends is they're like, "I hope he sees this project." And I was like, "I kind of hope he doesn't."
RC: [Laughs].
JJ: It's kinda creepy. It's kinda creepy, it's kinda weird. I've really gotten past the point in my life where I try to idealize celebrities and put them on a pedestal.
RC: For sure.
JJ: And I think this was just a full-blown exploration of that, of just like, how creepy can you get?
RC: But I feel like doing portraiture you almost have to not idealize 'cause you're really drawing him, you know?
JJ: Yeah, exactly.
RC: I love this hyper-fixation. Also just like, to tell the audience, the name of the show you did at the end of this was, The Artist Beheads Her Muse, which is just so good.
JJ: Yeah, thanks! I struggled with that.
RC: Like you holding the severed head of Jason Mantzoukas. And then also having a double self portrait of yourself. Yeah, I don't know. For me, it almost seems like he's the sad clown. So, it's almost like he's a mirror for you in a public facing and kind of way.
JJ: Yeah, that makes sense. And... I think I have a real, like I try to catch myself and check myself when it comes to this stuff. But I think I do have an issue that's been built in from those days of Tumblr, connecting with somebody on a level where it's like, "I have created an idealized version of what I think they are from their output."
RC: Mmm.
JJ: And seen myself in them through that. And trying to reconcile that with the fact that I know that like, that is an idealized version of them that I created, that is not the real person.
RC: Yeah.
JJ: And so I think that's how that whole web of ideas all connects together. It's like, I enjoy that. I enjoy being hyper-fixated. I mean like, one of my joys in the pandemic was like watching all of his filmography, which I gotta say, I love the man, but he's been in a lot of bad movies.
RC: Oh, so many.
JJ: So...I like going and like, I'm very prone to being hyper-fixated, especially when it comes to these kinds of people. And so I think it's also trying to reconcile that within myself. And to like give myself, I guess in a way, permission.
RC: Yeah.
JJ: As long as it doesn't border unhealthy, you know?
RC: Well I think fangirl culture, fan person culture does come from Tumblr, and was really like built up in the way that to be a groupie you didn't have to be in the same country. Like you could follow them around digitally. And I think that it almost took like the 80s 90s groupies to like an online, kind of more innocent but also more obsessive place.
JJ: Yeah. And I also think that young girls are encouraged to act that way because it makes money.
RC: Oh for sure. We are such a powerhouse in the economy.
JJ: Yeah. And then we’re made fun of for it. So it's a whole snake eating its own tail. So I feel like I was encouraged to act that way. I was encouraged to act unhealthy in a certain way, and then I had to come to that weird realization on my own. And now it's like, how do I fix that? Or how do I just live with that fact?
RC: Yeah. Well it almost seems like the solution was like you literally beheading your muse, your inspiration. And I think that that's such a literal way of doing it in the creepy comedy way that's very on brand for you. [Laughs].
JJ: Yeah, [laughs]. Yeah it's like I'm just gonna take this to the ultimate degree.
RC: Yeah.
JJ: 'Cause that's how I started feeling... I mean like, I've never had stalker tendencies, I wanna put that forward. Not ever.
RC: [Laughs].
JJ: At a certain point when you're drawing someone once a day, you're like, "Am I a stalker?" [Both laugh]. So it's like, boyyy, giiirl, what's goin' on?
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RC: This week’s podcast recommendation is an episode of How Did This Get Made? Abraxas, Guardian of the Universe Live. Jesse Ventura in a rat tail, terribly shot slow-mo fights, the anti-life equation, and much more. Recorded live from Vancouver, Paul, June, and Jason discuss the 1991 science fiction film Abraxas, Guardian of the Universe. So you know what that means…
RC: But uh, do you wanna talk a bit about your self portraiture practice?
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JJ: Yeah.
RC: And like your painting practice and how that's translated to now printing on fabrics? I feel like it's evolved so much.
JJ: There's so much to talk about there obviously.
RC: [Laughs].
JJ: I think that a lot of that does relate back to like... I just feel like I've never seen myself, like, being such a fan of media and pop culture, it's like, I really don't feel like I've ever seen myself represented in it.
RC: Mmm.
JJ: And I think that's what a huge part of actually exploring self portraiture was about.
RC: Yeah.
JJ: Especially when I got access to the photo department at Emily Carr. Being in the studio, having like, you can like rent high, high-quality cameras for free. We'd get access to all this stuff. All the ingredients.
RC: For sure.
JJ: The stuff that you would need to see yourself represented like that. So I think it kind of began there. And I think a lot of that has to do with my relationship with media. And then also the relationship to textiles. So like, one of the things I've always been super interested in was just like making my own clothes.
RC: Ooh.
JJ: And it mainly comes down to being plus-sized and not having access to the actual clothes I want to wear.
RC: For sure.
JJ: So that I feel like plays into a large part of it. I had taken one... I took silk screening courses in school. I was really bad at it.
RC: [Laughs].
JJ: I am a firm believer though in if you're bad at something, just try it out.
RC: Oh no, I love doing stuff that I'm bad at as like an ego check.
JJ: Yeah, [laughs]. And also, you're gonna do things the wrong way if you're not good at.
RC: Mhm.
JJ: And so you're going to find new forms of processes in that way. And then I also feel like, it is kind of important especially... like, I feel like a lot of artists are interdisciplinary. But like your one medium, or you think of ideas through one medium, then it's really good to like, do something else, just to get outside of it.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
JJ: Especially if you're stuck.
RC: Yeah.
JJ: I think that's a huge part of it. So, when I was in my final year of my degree, I took a silk screening course that was specifically for textiles. So you to make your own fabrics. And the two major projects that I did is, I made a dress and a coat. I did it specifically through the lens of I wanted to make fabric that was like, you know, there's like pre-ripped jeans and pre-dirtied articles of clothing from designers. So I was like, I'm gonna make... I made one called the artist's uniform. And it was basically white denim with silk screened paint splatters all over it.
RC: Oh my gosh, amazing.
JJ: I thought it would be funny. And then I made a coat, but it didn't really turn out that well. It was black and I silkscreened galaxies all over it. It was just white, like no major colours. And I was like, that's why it's dirt. [Both laugh].
RC: Oh my gosh.
JJ: So I started doing that. And I carried that through. I don't come from a family with a lot of money, but the one thing my mom did for me when I graduated as a grad birthday gift, she bought me a sewing machine.
RC: Oh, awesome.
JJ: She's like, "That's something you can use and you're already doing it, so I know you'll use it." I still have it and use it frequently. So, I carried on making clothing after that. And it kind of related back to like the performance of self. And so, I feel like since 2018 I've been trying to like connect all those ideas of performing yourself, what's the truest version of a performance that I can figure out, how to relate that in my photographic practice, and how to incorporate that materiality of the object.
RC: Yeah, when you talk about the performance of self, immediately I go in my head straight to gender performance.
JJ: Yeah.
RC: And like, making clothes is so tied up with gender and body. And like you said, plus size clothing either doesn't look great, is badly designed, or like doesn't exist in the proper sizing.
JJ: Yeah.
RC: I was just wondering like, do you approach your clothing making practice as part of your arts practice? Or it's just like a very practical thing right now?
JJ: At first I didn't. At first I was like, "This is a strictly practical thing." This is just for me to make like... the first kind of pieces I made were overalls, corduroy overalls.
RC: Ooh.
JJ: A half kind of puffer jacket. Like, very practical things that I actually wore out. And then I started to realize, "Oh, I think this could be something more."
RC: Mhm.
JJ: And I feel like now is finally the tipping point. The next kind of ideas... I don't know if I should really talk about ideas [inaudible] but, it's like...printing photographs onto fabric, it's like, well what can I do with that fabric?
RC: Mhm.
JJ: So, that's [laughs] the teaser I'll give, but...
RC: Work in progress, work in progress.
JJ: Yeah, so that's the thing I've been like super interested in because I... because that's the other thing too it's like, when does it stray from an art piece into fashion?
RC: Well, fashion for me is just becoming more and more art. Especially with all these new designers... I don't know, it's beautiful.
JJ: I think that too. And I also think that there is like a history in fashion of like very... especially with avant-garde kind of stuff, like Alexander McQueen kind of shows.
RC: Mhm.
JJ: Like a lot of those, like I specifically think of the one show, I don't know what year it is, basically the end of the show culminated in a model walking out in a white dress and she stands at the end and the stage starts spinning and two robots come out and spray paint the dress that's on her.
RC: Oh wow.
JJ: And it's like pretty...that's art, I'll fight anybody who says that it isn't. [Laughs].
RC: For sure! But also just like how we as people, like outside of designers, how we customize our clothes, how we decide to dress as super important for, like you were saying performance of selves and of gender.
JJ: Yeah. Definitely. And that's kind of like also the most interesting thing I feel like I'm seeing in fashion now too is gender neutrality, which I think is a huge step forward.
RC: Love it. Yeah
JJ: I really do. But I do find that super interesting. And that is also the other thing too, I think artist fashion is so specific as well. And you can get away with way crazier stuff than you could if you were... had a normal office job.
RC: Yeah, [laughs].
JJ: I think it's also partially that.
RC: For sure.
JJ: So yeah.
RC: That's so cool. And I feel like I really like your style. Just following you on Instagram and stuff, and now knowing that you make your clothes, I feel like it makes it extra special.
JJ: Thanks, [both laugh]. I mean that's my biggest thing. I don't know if we talked about this before but like, one of the big things I saw throughout the pandemic was like, a weird of amount of attention on TikTok.
RC: Huh.
JJ: And a lot of that came out of posting about my fashion.
RC: Mmm.
JJ: And posting the [inaudible] but also how to alter things.
RC: Yes.
JJ: I think that's such a valuable skill, especially when your plus sized. 'Cause like, all the time you like, thrifting is not really an option. It's few and far between when your plus sized. That's just not a lot of stuff out there for plus-sized people at thrift stores. But like so, you can take shapes and you can make them bigger. And you can make it intentional. You don't have to find the perfect fabric to match the garment. Like, do something fun with it.
RC: Yeah. And this rise in visible mending, yeah. Visible mending, visible tailoring. I think it makes clothes look more personalized and look more funky. I think in this time of fast-fashion everyone kinda have the same black v neck, but if you're rocking something that you made... right?
JJ: That's exactly it. That's kind of my biggest driving point is like, no one else will have this. This is like, distinctly mine. Which can sometimes feel very freeing.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
JJ: Yeah.
RC: What's the difference in your making practice, like...I feel like, like you said, you're so interdisciplinary. Do you think you have like a similar approach? Are you coming out of conceptually? Or are you coming out at more material-based project to project?
JJ: Oh, I would definitely say sewing projects for me are very... like they have been in the past very utilitarian.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
JJ: 'Cause like, I'm looking for this specific garment. I have not found it, I cannot find it in my size. I'm going to do my best to make it and see what happens. And so, it kind of usually starts that way.
RC: Yeah.
JJ: And then sometimes if I get into the project, I'm like, "Oh this is above my paygrade," I will adapt it into something else. But yeah, so far... up until recently I feel like not a lot of conceptual thought behind it. Although, hopefully maybe in the future I'll get there.
RC: [Laughs]. But like, starting with more your artistic practice, does it usually come from...like how do you start a project?
JJ: Oh...I...it's funny. I will legitimately be on the bus, or going for a walk, or in the shower, or like, laying in bed when I'm supposed to be sleeping, and literally just be like, "Oh! I should do this!" And I'll write it down in my notes app, and then I'll forget about it. And then two weeks later I'll be like, "What was that idea I had that one day?" And I'll go back and read it, and like, yes, that's...yeah, okay, we’ll do that. I feel like recently, especially... It was a good opportunity to have that incubator program. After making those pieces, like the day before I had to take my work in I was like, "Ooh. I should've done this."
RC: Mmm.
JJ: But you know what? I can do that now. So it's just like seems to be a continuation.
RC: I love that! The way you talked about this arts incubator at Art Gallery at Evergreen, they gave you the space but also the time to make something and now you have a jumping off point for the rest of your practice.
JJ: Yeah. It's kind of like a nice place to be, especially after being so stagnant over the last 18 months beforehand. It feels good to actually sit down, make something. And then also have the chance to show it, for people to see it.
RC: For sure.
JJ: That was like a big part of it too. And it kind of brang back the good feelings of like, "Okay, I'm just gonna start making stuff, and yeah, people might not see it, but at least I have stuff ready to go."
RC: For sure.
JJ: Yeah.
RC: How much of a part of your practice is people seeing it? That's something I've been thinking about a lot lately. With quarantine but also with being an emerging artist, it's so rare that people get to see your stuff.
JJ: Well that's like...it's tough because like, I was talking to someone about this recently too. I think it's tough for any artist, but like photography, it's also especially a grey area where it's like, how much do I post to Instagram before people feel like they've actually already seen it so they're not inclined to see it in person? And I also feel like the one thing I really want to get myself out of is like, getting an opportunity to show work and having all the ideas for those works and kind of having the first steps be done, but being under a ridiculous deadline. Because I agreed to do the work but I haven't actually made it!
RC: Ahh, goodness.
JJ: I feel like that's so classic though. So I'm just trying to get myself out of that because also at the end of the day, I really feel like accomplished. Like if I do something, if I've made something or if I'm halfway through a project, when I go to sleep at night I'm like, I actually felt like I did something today. Whereas if it's a day that goes by where I haven't necessarily done anything, I just feel like antsy and almost anxious.
RC: Yeah. Yeah I get that.
JJ: Yeah, so that's the thing I'm trying to restart up for myself. Because if the opportunity hopefully comes along again, I don't want to put myself under a time crunch to get everything done.
RC: You do it. Do you find you work better under pressure? Or you need that kind of like, leisurely time to get it done?
JJ: I honestly feel like I work really well under pressure.
RC: I'm so jealous. [Both laugh].
JJ: I don't know what it is in me, but I learned to this very quickly in university, is like, if I have a million things going on, I am really good at shutting off the anxious feelings and being like, "Well I have to do this. There's no way around it, I have to do it, so I'm gonna do it." And that's that, and I just go on my way and do my stuff. But I think that that doesn't come without like...yeah. You run into problems, you always run into problems with something.
RC: Mhm.
JJ: So I'm trying to cut down on that, even though I love to work under the gun. It's like, not mentally sustainable.
RC: The burnout is so real.
JJ: Yeah. Then like burnout hit me hard this year. It was brutal. Back in like... I feel like May-June, I needed like two months, well three months really to recover and so I was just like... yeah. And it's worse 'cause you're burnt out and you're like, now I need time to not do anything. This is the...to like reference Bo Burnham’s Inside, this is like me in my own reaction video spiral, being like, "Okay, I need to relax, but I don't have time to relax because I need to do all this stuff but I can't do all this stuff because I'm not relaxed." And now I'm just super anxious. It just turned into its own nightmare. [Laughs].
RC: Mhm, mhm.
JJ: Yeah.
RC: The thought spiral. [Laughs].
JJ: I wrote down, and I don't know the how this came into being, "rejecting hierarchies, social norms and private property." And I feel like that's so...
JJ: [Laughs]. Oh my god, that's Bo Burnham, private property is inherently theft.
RC: Yeah. Do you wanna... I was just wondering, I feel like your work is very political in a certain way, in the same way that Bo Burnham's Inside is political in a certain way, and if you wanted to talk a little bit about that.
JJ: Yeah, I think I know how that came about too. I think I see the connection. I think it comes down to like, I…from my education, especially being a photography major, especially being grounded in a place like Vancouver and doing photography, I do think there's a hierarchy. And it's the most... I feel like the most valued perspective, at least from what I've seen is like, a white male perspective, of somebody who's doing work about process.
RC: Mmm.
JJ: And they've shot it on film. And it's a pristine inkjet print with pristine framing.
RC: Yeah.
JJ: And that's like...'cause my other kind of explorations into other materialities was in art school. One of the major things I got caught up on, which I think there's still something there... some people tried to talk me out of it, but in hindsight I'm like, "Why did I let them? But I would get the cheapest, I would shoot digital because I was like, "Why are we not?"
RC: Yeah.
JJ: And like, film has a beautiful quality to it, but some of the projects people were putting out didn't [inaudible]. And like, I shot digital and printed on the cheapest materials, and would hang everything up with very elaborate, coloured masking tape.
RC: Nice.
JJ: Which was just a rejection of like, why am I going to spend a crazy amount of money putting these projects together? Because it doesn't always...and I also feel like people hide behind that sometimes.
RC: Oh yeah.
JJ: And have no conceptual value to their work. And so, I think a lot of my materiality in my practice is to rejecting that.
RC: Mmm.
JJ: It was like, rejecting that aspect entirely. I also feel like... I mean, there are some photographers in Vancouver that are doing very interesting things, but I also think it's become a little stagnant.
RC: Yeah, yeah.
JJ: So I think a large part of that came out of that. [Laughs]. So yeah. 'Cause I love photography. I think it's super interesting. I think it's going through a really interesting period of time right now, especially with basically with a large part of the population, everyone has a pretty decent camera on their phone.
RC: Yeah!
JJ: So it's like how do you reconcile...and then I also think there's been this long conversation in art about whether photography is art or not.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
JJ: And so like...I think there's so much there that's just not being explored, which is kind of silly.
RC: Yeah, no. I love... what you're saying makes a lot of sense and I agree with you wholeheartedly. As a curator, I'm really tired of seeing really expensive work that doesn't have a lot of thought behind it, and photography that's super easy to do. Well, with all art, that's super easy to do, let's be honest. But yeah, it's really refreshing to see people working like quote unquote, low brow or more quick and messy and cheaper. It's way more accessible for audiences too I think.
JJ: Yeah, I think so too. And like, I think that's the thing people get scared of a lot in terms of conceptual art. Like, it can be accessible and still have conceptual thought behind it. It doesn't just need to be for the artspeak community.
RC: No, for sure.
JJ: But I also think that a lot of... I do really love low brow...I'm a big... One of the most influential shows I saw but just like the first major show I ever went to was John Waters had curated a show at the Walker Art Centre.
RC: What?! That's sick! [Laughs].
JJ: What was it called? It was called something super funny. It was Absentee Landlord.
RC: Oh my gosh.
JJ: That's what it was. And it had some of his working in it. Which, his work is...it's so funny. There's one sign specifically and it says like, "Make art, for fun AND profit."
RC: [Laughs].
JJ: There was a little bit of his stuff, but for the most part, it was like...it was a really interesting show. It was the first time I'd ever seen Wolfgang Tillmans. It was the first time I'd ever seen a Warhol in person.
RC: Sick.
JJ: It was like really fun pieces. I wish I could remember the name of the artist who did it, but there was one photo, black and white photograph, flower, and then it looked like a sewing needle sticking out the end of it, right in the middle of the flower. When you got close to it, it sprayed water at you.
RC: Oh my gosh! [Laughs].
JJ: Yeah, it was a really mind-opening show. And I saw it when I was 16.
RC: Wow.
JJ: I think that was the first inkling that I was like, "Oh, there could be a place for me." Because you just have to make a place for yourself.
RC: Yeah, yeah.
JJ: And so, I don't know how I got there from what you asked me but...
RC: [Laughs].
JJ: Oh I guess low brow. I love it though. I mean like...not everything needs to be a high brow all the time. And there is beauty and genuine...I don't know, emotion and stuff to be had in low brow. I think it's so underrated.
RC: For sure. And for me, I feel like it feels more in the world. And like, both my parents come from very working-class backgrounds, so like, I don't know. High-polish, white cube stuff doesn't feel like it exists within my reality.
JJ: Yeah. I feel exactly the same. One of my favourite experience I've ever had is... when I was visiting home one Christmas, I wanted to go to the Remai Modern in Saskatoon.
RC: Mhm.
JJ: It's this beautiful gallery. So I took my mom, I was like, "Don't worry about it, I'll buy your ticket. Let's go. Just come with me and hang out." and there was a room with Rauschenbergs specifically. And she was like, "This looks like your Dad's garage."
RC: Hah!
JJ: And I was like, "I'm so here for you! The way you're dunking on Rauschenberg." And so... so that's my exact perspective. I feel like in some ways I've been looked down on this like...wanting for it to be like this. But I've always [inaudible] work where if people like my parents walked into a gallery, they would at least have some sort of access to it, somebody to enjoy it.
RC: Yeah. That's how I do my art criticism writing, or my writing in general. I write it for my mom, who is a smart intelligent person, but like, she doesn't have an art history degree, let you know?
JJ: Yeah. Exactly. And I think the art world can so easily and has so easily become just like this in-crowd of like, we're all just like making stuff for each other, and we have all these inside references and jokes and it's like, it's very hard for... like, how do you build a community by doing that?
RC: Yeah, I don't know. And I think that's why your work, the pop culture references just make it way more accessible for everyone. Because if you have the internet, if you're blessed to have the internet, you can access these TV shows, he's whatever, and it's like, yes, it is limited with an English television, I still think lots and lots of people watch English television like all around the world.
JJ: It just casts a wider net.
RC: It really does.
JJ: Like a way wider net.
RC: It really does.
JJ: That's my kind of thing. And I also think like, you know, at least in the last ten years, the relationship to pop culture and media has shifted significantly, And I also think so in the last year and a half.
RC: Oh for sure within the last year and a half. People, if they didn't realize how important art was before, they realize it now. And the thing that I do to make myself happier is...especially when I was writing my MFA thesis, I would hang art. I moved into my new apartment, and I would write a paragraph, hang a new artwork. Write a paragraph, hang a new artwork. [Laughs].
JJ: Nice. Yeah, it's like... but I, yeah, my exact thing is like, at the end of a tough day, I'll reward myself by putting on a new movie, or putting on a movie I already like, or a TV show I already like and rewatch and know I can enjoy.
RC: Yeah, yeah.
JJ: I think that's been a lot of people's experience now is like, there's nothing else to do 'cause I'm inside, I'm gonna... watch an ungodly amount of content.
RC: [Laughs]. Ungodly. Basically that's what's happened.
JJ: Oh yeah. Well I don't know, I feel like I already observed so much stuff,
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and then when the pandemic hit I was kind of like stunted. I feel like I watched some new things, but for the most part I was like, "I'm just gonna sit alone with my thoughts."
RC: Aww.
JJ: I don't know if that was good or bad.
RC: Definitely a mixed bag there, mixed bag. [Laughs].
JJ: [Laughs]. It can be good and bad.
RC: Thanks for listening to Hopping the Fence, a podcast dedicated to the fringes of the Canadian art scene.
If you have an artist that you would like to hear interviewed, would like to correct / fact check a past episode, or would like to chat, feel free to send me a message on Instagram @hoppingthefence, or by email at rebeccaecasalino@gmail.com. Thanks to the OCAD Student Union for your financial support. Thank you to all of our Patreons for your ongoing support. It truly does help me avoid burnout and keeps this podcast rolling. If you would like to support Hopping the Fence, please visit our Patreon to subscribe. Check out the show notes for more details. If you can’t donate, no worries. Thanks for taking the time to listen.
Audio editing for Hopping the Fence by Emily Reimer. Original artwork by Alex Gregory, and original music by Jessica Price Eisner.
Thank you so much, bye!
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