Natalie King

Hopping the Fence Podcast Transcript - #11, Natalie King

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RC: Hello, I’m Rebecca Casalino, and this is Hopping the Fence, a podcast dedicated to talking to artists on the fringes of the Canadian art scene. 

Natalie King is a queer interdisciplinary Anishinaabe artist, facilitator and member of Timiskaming First Nation. King's arts practice ranges from video, painting, sculpture and installation as well as community engagement, curation and arts administration. King is currently a Programming Coordinator at Xpace Cultural Centre in Tkaronto.

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Often involving portrayals of queer femmes, King’s works are about embracing the ambiguity and multiplicities of identity within the Indigenous queer femme experience. King's practice operates from a firmly critical, anti-colonial, non-oppressive, and future-bound perspective, reclaiming the realities of lived lives through frameworks of desire and survivance.

Our conversation was recorded in Hamilton within Treaty 3 territory on the ancestral land of the Haudenosaunee and Anishinaabe nations under the Dish With One Spoon wampum agreement.

RC: Hi Natalie!

NK: Hello!

RC: How are you doin’?

NK: I’m doin’ pretty good today, I feel pretty relaxed, pretty chill.

RC: Awesome! And where are you right now?

NK: I’m currently in my basement apartment in Tkaronto, The place that I've lived for the past almost six years? And I am on this tiny little desk in this corner right beside my closet (laughs). 

RC: Nice. So I just wanted to ask you a bit about your background, for me and for listeners. And how you got started as an artist. 

NK: Yeah, that's a great question. I feel like my practice has sort of... well I mean, I guess I could start at the beginning which would be like childhood. 

RC: Yeah. 

NK: As a kid, I was super drawn to the arts. I was super drawn to drawing and painting. I always felt like the best times were always times where I was being creative and sort of... I've sort of chosen that direction for my life and fully leaned into it. And thankfully my parents have been super supportive of that. A little bit about my practice in general I guess I could go into that?

RC: Yeah, what did you start off making at Georgian or even before that in high school or as a kid? 

NK: Oh my god, I love that you know that! [Both laugh]. Yeah, I went to Georgian College in Barrie, Ontario. I did a fine arts advanced program there. And I was there for about two years. The program’s two years. The program was really awesome because it sort of gives you a taste of everything. So I got to take printmaking classes, sculpture classes, painting and drawing, I did welding. 

RC: Sick.

NK: I did a whole bunch of things. So it was really great to get a feel of all these different types of mediums that I could possibly use within my practice. And I think that's why I've taken sort of a multidisciplinary lens to everything that I do. Just because there are so many ways of conveying the message that you want to achieve, and I think that having that background really helped me. Back then, I think most of the work that I was making during that time was fairly... I would say it was less about representing my culture and identity and more about, you know, doing these strange abstract paintings. I didn't have any figures in my work.

It's very interesting when people mention early work...'cause I feel like all artists, we're always very nostalgic for early work, but we're also sort of cringe. 

RC: Yeah. [Both laugh]. 

NK: So the works at that time, they weren't great, but I think it's important to remember those times and sort of hold space for the journey. And I think that that's sort of…I guess that would be the very beginnings of it. 

RC: Yeah and also it shows how much you've grown as an artist, and how all that time and energy and knowledge pays off in the end, you know? Like looking at now versus then. 

NK: Yeah, oh my god. It really goes to show you what labour means and what it means to put all of your energy and your experiences and the stories you have and the ideas that you have and... looking back on work that I made as the younger version of myself and thinking about... I don't know if I necessarily felt fully comfortable making work about my identity or my communities because I was so... you're still figuring it out right? 

RC: Mhm.

NK: Figuring out who you are and you're exposed to all these new materials and all of these things. And the fact that this process has been, oh my gosh, I don't even know... I've been making art for a long time now. I mean, not as long as some, but I do feel like when I look at those early works, I do see a lot of what I bring to my work now and small ways definitely. 

RC: Yeah, I was wondering stylistically, is this, the figurative style that you're using right now, Is this something that's shown up in your earlier work? Or is this something that you've just come into? 

NK: I was making some figurative work back then. I think mostly a lot of the things that I was exploring was sort of visualizing emotions and colours and forms and shapes. And I think that was just me sort of entering the art spaces in a way, and sort of figuring out what my voice really was in these spaces.  I also think for a lot of marginalized people, we often don't necessarily feel like there is that space, and we want to feel comfortable and cared for before we enter making work specifically about Identity or community. So that was sort of me... It's cute to look back on. But yeah, there is that cringe factor. There were always hints of those figures. I remember I did a figurative piece at Georgian really really early on, and I remember feeling like there was such a magic to that work. And it was sort of at a point where...I think I was talking to an instructor or something, and we were speaking about my work and what I wanted to do in my art, and I remember them being like, "I don't see this. I don't see all of these amazing things that you're talking about within your work." And then I made this figurative piece to sort of say, "Well look. I can do this! And I have the ability to convey these things." And that also takes time. 

RC: Yeah. 

NK: Developing a visual language around these abstract ideas of queerness or Indigeneity or space and belonging and care and land. Those things are so inherent to so much of my culture. But also, when you're within these institutions it's not always the first welcoming thing, right? If you're in a room with a bunch of white cis-het people, my instinct wasn't necessarily to make works about my culture because I felt very protective of it. 

RC: So, did your art practice change when you went to OCAD? Was that a space you felt more comfortable putting your personal narrative forward? Or was it an artistic shift when you got there? 

NK: I guess it wasn't necessarily about having the institutions sort of be a place where I found that. I think it was more or less coming of age and moving to Toronto, which was a place where I had the ability to connect with, more or less, people like me. And I had the ability to expand my ideas of how I wanted to portray these ideas or these ways of being into my practice. Yeah, I would say it was more or less finding my community in Toronto that really brought this out. 

RC: Yeah. And did you find your community right away? Or was it something you had to build towards? 

NK: I think it took some time. Also, I feel like OCAD is interesting in a way because at Georgian, there was a lot of folks in the studio all the time. And the studios were fairly open, and people would have class and then be in the studio for hours after their class just making work and talking to each other.

RC: Awesome.

NK: And there was this really interesting community. And I felt like it was a little bit different at OCAD. A lot of people that go to OCAD also commute there. Anytime you move to a different city, it always takes some time. 

RC: I was just curious because I feel like I kind of fell into the queer community, but it was definitely such a process moving to Toronto and meeting all those people. 

NK: Mhm. At first, you're just like, "Oh my god, everyone's so cool!" and you want to make friends, but you're also like, "Are you...?" And then you have conversations with people and it just sparks these ideas of belonging. I grew up in a place where there wasn't a lot of, I don't even know how many queer people. [Both laugh]. There wasn't a lot of queer people. There wasn't those chances to make those connections. So when I came here, it really was an awakening in a way for me. I think overall, out of my whole experience at OCAD, I think the people that I met there was the most valuable to my practice I would say.

RC: Yeah. And you're still in communication with the community that you built there? Do you find it just grows after you graduate? 

NK: It's interesting. I feel like it grows. And I feel like also, depending on what space you're in, it's definitely constantly changing. Especially with COVID, I think it's been hard to be isolated from everyone. And we sort of have to rethink the ways that we experience community are we experience reciprocity, or we experience connecting with each other. I think for the past few months I've been very isolated. I'm sure everyone has. It's been tricky, it's been hard. 

RC: Yeah, I think especially if your making practice is so rooted in community. I know for me it's been... It's felt like I'm not even a part of the conversation. And the conversation I had with my peers is such a big part of my thinking. 

NK: And that informs so much, you know? Even being separate from family. It's been me and my partner and my dog for the past, almost a year now. It's sort of going internal. 

RC: Yeah. 

NK: Yeah. 

RC: One of the things I wanted to ask you about was actually your external painting, as a segue. [Both laugh]. I love your mural practice and I just wanted to ask you how you got into it and how do you feel working on that scale, but also working in such a public way, in skate parks. How does your art change? 

NK: It's so interesting. I think there are a lot of variables that come into play when you're making a mural. How I got into it... I think the first one I did was 2018 or 2019. I saw so many of my peers, so many people that I admire and respect like Curtia Wright and Mo Aura and all these people making these amazing murals in the city. And I was thinking about the ways in which my art practice could expand into a more accessible way. And I think having my experience with installation really lends itself to mural making. I think murals are quite different in terms of...you know, it's very site-specific. Depending on the site that you're given, you sort of work around that. And it's interesting, it's like, you're painting, and then there's also the elements, so it could start raining, you know? People are walking by, people are saying, "Oh, what's this?" And then you start to have conversations about the work, you know? I did a mural at the Eighth Street Skatepark last year. And it was interesting too because [laughs] they had sectioned off a spot for me to do it. But there's still people using the park. So there's people flying over you as you're trying to paint. I've got all my paint and all my spray paint and I'm just in this little corner and there's people flying by on skateboards, people hitting me. It’s very interesting. I think I tend to think about like, "Okay. What is this space? How is it being used and how can I best provide some form of joy to this spot?" So yeah, it's really fun. I love it. I wish I could do more of it. 

RC: That's so cool. I didn't even think about how your installation practice would relate to that, but that makes a lot of sense. How you're describing it is making me think about your installation for Come Up To My Room a couple years ago. 

NK: Yes! 

RC: How did you approach that insulation? Because it was so fun and it was just bright and the perfect atmosphere for that. It was great.

NK: It was interesting too, 'cause you usually start with…one of the first things is the site visit. So I went to the Gladstone and I was shown the space that I'd been given, which was a hallway and a little alcove which was gonna be the area which my gonna be in. And I was thinking about, working through ideas of material access and the value that we place on certain art materials over other materials. And I like to work in very highly accessible materials. At that time, I was working in foam core. And I was making these sort of, I would say for people listening, they were large cut out figures. You know when you go to the movie theatre, you see like a cut out of a superhero or something? I sort of wanted to create that idea of queer superheroes and I wanted to have them floating within these hallways. And the work primarily was about queer feminine identities that are certainly overlooked and invalidated in queer communities. And sort of illuminating the existence of this queer body and what does it mean to embrace femininity in all forms and celebrate these ideas of queer femme leaders.

RC: Mhm. 

NK: That was those works. And it was really fun. It was my first experience and expanding my installation practice. It's so interesting too though, because I felt like at that time... I mean, before that I was primarily working in painting. And then I was rethinking how do I... again, in terms of murals, in terms of installation. In my work it's like how do I continuously command this space without just having my work exist within this rectangle? 

RC: Mhm. 

NK: That was that work. 

RC: When you say, "command the space," I immediately think of your use of colour. And I wanted to know where that inspiration comes from and how you developed that language. Looking at your paintings, you see this pattern, like, "Oh yes, these neons are here for a reason."

NK: [Laughs], oh my god, I love that. This is really interesting that you bring that up too, because I feel like a lot of people sort of mentioned that use of colour within my practice and I think it's because that's something that obviously stands out. 

RC: Mhm.

NK: I think a lot of it comes from camp. A lot of it comes from ideas of early 2000s culture. A lot of it comes from celebrations of adornment, celebrations of taking up space. I think to me, it's a lot about conveying a sense of a femininity that is rooted in anger, but also rooted in love, if that makes any sense. [Laughs]. 

RC: Yeah! These colours are very aggressive but they're so beautiful and feminine in a way. I don't know why neon yellow is feminine, but it is. 

NK: And it's also masculine, right? Let me think about gender and colour and gender and fashion and ways of self-presentation, I feel like the sort of everything goes ideas I love. I love the idea of framing something through camp or queerness and sort of turning the dial up a little bit, just to sort of have an idea of hybridity and multiplicity of queer femme aesthetics. Yeah. 

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RC: This week’s podcast recommendation is Sandy and Nora’s Politics Podcast, episode 134: Canadian Media Whites Again. In this episode, Sandy and Nora talk about CBC Winnipeg, rabble, Black writers being ignored for wanting to write about the far right, Passage’s media relations list and how white supremacy is maintained inside Canadian newsrooms. 

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RC:  But do you want to talk a bit about your own personal styling? I feel like you are embodying this  kind of camp but also taking up space with your earrings and your makeup and your outfits and it is very queer and of this moment. 

NK: Yeah! I mean, as a kid I was always super drawn things that were very over-the-top. Growing up watching cartoons and having ideas about... seeing queerness maybe in places where we didn't have the opportunity to see it. So sort of like making it for yourself. I think it's really about pleasure, and feeling good and not necessarily having a style or a presence that's rooted in anything else but fun, vivacity, desire, survival. All of these things come to mind. Especially as a queer Indigenous person, I think about…a lot of regalia is about representing the place that you're from and representing who you are. And to me especially now, I think about the denial of commodification and the denial of being painted as a certain type of feminine person. Well, what does that mean to me? What does that look like in terms of how I see myself? And how I see myself is just sort of like this nebulous blob, and this fleshy blob. How am I going to adorn this fleshy blob? Well, today I feel like I want to wear fringe and I want to have makeup that looks like the greenness of... just thinking about...I don't know if this is making any sense. It's such an abstract. 

RC: It is. You're very much summarizing like... it's hard for me to explain to people why I want tattoos, but it's very much to signal to people like, "This is where I'm from and this is where I'm coming from." 

NK: Yeah. Our bodies tell a story, right? 

RC: Yeah. 

NK: I think the way that we adorn our bodies and the things that we put on our bodies say more about us... what's physically there. I think how we decide how that's gonna be seen is in many ways is just as important, I think both things are just as important. Not to pick one or the other, but I think that that idea of self invention is always super prevalent to me and also within my work. And I'm glad that that comes across. 

RC: I think self-invention and world making, that feels very feminine to me. Maybe because femininity is a bit more fluid than masculinity right now, hopefully that will change. [Laughs]. 

NK: Yeah. 

RC: But yeah, it does feel very freeing to be feminine and dress however you feel that day. 

NK: Mhm. I think it's interesting too, these conversations about gender and how we present ourselves is just as much about performance. And I think in a lot of art practices in terms of painting or installation work that I've done, it's also about framing freedom and introspection and self-styling in a way that we see our relationships or our power dynamics or it's about existing outside of these cis-heteronormative ways of thinking. It's a little bit more about who am I? How do I see gender? What does it mean to me? How am I self actualizing in the way that I want to for myself? So, I think that's where a lot of my fashions come from. 

RC: Nice. And in terms of your curatorial and also art admin practice, how does that factor into your view of yourself as a community member but also yourself as an artist? Does that change your practice or make things easier or more difficult? 

NK: Philip and I, Philip Ocampo who's also a programming coordinator at Xpace, we have the same job so we have a lot of conversations together about these sort of things. And I think, I don't necessarily see the arts admin things that I do as something that exists outside of my practice. I think it very much exists within my practice. I love being a support person in that role. And, you know, I find that it’s interesting, I think when you're working in a position, or if you're working within an institution, or you’re doing something, I feel like there's often this pressure to have all the answers, or at least have the right answers. And as somebody who's been in this role for a year and a half, I'm still learning and I'm still looking for those… you're often called to be a mentor when you're also looking for one. Do you know what I mean? 

RC: Yeah, yeah.

NK: So it's an interesting thing. I feel like I'm constantly learning from the people that we collaborate with. I'm constantly learning in terms of the pandemic and how to switch my brain into site-specific mode into virtual mode, which is a huge learning curve. But I think this experience has really, really bonded us in a way. I always see Xpace as the mom and pop shop of artist run centres. And I think it's true, we take what we have and we make the most of it. And I think that having this amazing community also, everyone's so awesome and I feel super lucky. I see it as sort of an extension of that. It sort of exists within my art practice, if that makes any sense. 

RC: Yeah. Do you want to maybe expand on that a little bit? How do you feel it impacts you as an artist? Being in the community as a support role.

NK: I mean, I feel a great sense of responsibility. I feel a great sense of pride when I see other people doing really well and I see folks that we've shown with. And I feel like sharing resources every day, connecting with people, these are all things that go into my practice as an artist. And I think if my practice as an artist is about being critical, about being equity-oriented, not oppressive, future-bound,  then the ways that I operate within my job, within my role also have to be those things. But also keeping in mind at the end of the day, it is a job.

RC: Yeah.

NK: So also having that separation of those boundaries between the personal and the professional are also important. But I also think it's so hard not to right? Because I love everyone. And also so much about art and making and sharing is about personal experiences too. [Laughs].

RC: I think especially after... once the art world, some of the art world rejected universal singular narratives, all of a sudden everybody got to speak. And there's just so much energy behind it. But also, I wanted to talk to you about your upcoming exhibition, and what that's going to look, and what you've been doing to prepare for it. 

NK: Yeah, it's super exciting. I have my first solo exhibition. It's happening at Hearth Garage. The title is (Re)membering and (Re)imagining: the Joyous Star Peoples of Turtle Island. I started making this work, I think it was maybe around November or December 2020. Working Tuesday to Saturday at Xpace and then Sunday and Mondays making work in the studio. 

RC: Nice. 

NK: So I haven't really had any time off. [Both laugh].

RC: Oh no.

NK: I think I got this from my dad. We tend to put all our energies into our work. And in many ways, that is so amazing and positive and in other ways it's like, you know, maybe I need to learn how to take a break. I definitely will be after this. But the project is addressing joy, love, power, reclamation and the re-imagining of Anishnaabeg futures. So I've been thinking a lot about stories of the stars and the practice of oral storytelling within Anishnaabeg ideas.  And I'm thinking about visualizing the sort of ancestor-to-ancestor conversation that exists beyond the physical plane. So I think at the heart of it, I'm exploring urban Indigenous identity. And I'm imagining these stories as painting or as thoughts and futures and sort of addressing or challenging these… maybe monolithic or stereotypical ideas or understandings of Indigeneity, especially within the context of the consumption of queer Indigenous trauma. Sort of taking these signifiers of urban Indigenous identity and expanding on time, space, belonging, reverence. And sort of thinking about how do we transform our relations and the things that we all, as agents of colonialism, partake in? So intervening at the level of governmentality, inviting viewers to entangle themselves in the project of colonialism through a queer lens that is focused on pride, joy, anger. I think worldbuilding would be the word that's been sort of floating around in my head. 

RC: Mhm. 

NK: Yeah. It opens on the 19th, so in a few weeks. I'm really excited. I still kind of have those nerves for the buildup of a show, and you're just alone making these works for so long. And then you finally have a chance to show them and you're a little scared, a little excited, you know, all those feelings. 

RC: Yeah, it's like your kid's first day of daycare or something, like you want them to do well. 

NK: Yes! Oh my god, that is exactly the feeling. I mean, I don't have a child, and I've never taken a child to daycare, but I'm assuming that's what it feels like. [Both laugh]. 

RC: Yeah, I always refer to my art in a very maternal way. Like, "Oh, I'm gestating. Oh, I've given birth to this artwork and now it's going out into the real world, leaving the nest." 

NK: Yes, yes. And the idea of mothering or taking care of these ideas or being protective of these ideas and these objects. I get what you're saying, yeah. 

RC: Bringing things into... I feel like I watch my artworks grow up as I'm working on them. I kind of understand what it's going to be but it's always like a surprise. 

NK: Yeah. I mean, even in the beginning… I think it's interesting, I always start off with a broad sense of what I want to do. I think… the beginning is always so interesting because there's always so many ways in which a project can go. I think once you narrow it down and really get to the heart of it, I feel like that's where I get really excited. When I start to see these sort of very abstract thoughts and ideas being expressed in the form, which the show is primarily painting. So it's really exciting. Sort of like I was saying earlier, it takes a long time to come to an idea of your specific vantage point, but also your specific visual language. And how do we tell stories? Mostly in my culture, you know, all of our stories are oral. And every time somebody tells a story, anytime and Elder tells you a story, it's consistently changing. So each time the story is told it's changing. And even thinking about thoughts of looking at the past. When we look up at the stars, we're looking at the past, but we're always looking at the present. And what does it mean as an Indigenous person to look at the past and think about the future in the context of recreating it for yourself or taking these traditions, taking these knowledges and sort of framing it in terms of joy. So yeah, I think... I don't know where I was going with that, [both laugh], kind of went on a tangent. But yeah, that's what the work is about. 

RC: Yeah, I noticed I got your artworks that you've already posted and that you have on your website, you were doing these solo figures that took up the whole canvas and really had presence. But now I'm starting to see more figures on top of each other and you see lots of people existing together. What kind of attitude is your show taking on now? Is it a lot of paintings of groups of people, or are you doing portraits? What's the feel? 

NK: The feel, that's a great question. I would say a lot of the pieces have sort of this overarching idea of being held or moving through space and time.  Some of the figures are more or less floating in space, and then some of them are floating in space together. I have these larger-scale paintings that are on unstretched canvas, which I'm also going to be hanging on the ceiling. They're fairly large. One of them is like 12 feet. But very narrow as well. I think for me, it's been an interesting process because so much of the work is about space and belonging and the sort of unspoken languages that... when you're making them alone, it's interesting. It's really relying on what you've learned and what's already within you and bringing that forward. 

RC: Yeah, I think it's really beautiful that you making works about being held in this moment we're being held is something that's not only very risky but it's just something that a lot of people are not experiencing right now. 

NK: Yeah. I can't even imagine. It's difficult, I mean I'm lucky that I have a partner here with me. I've got a dog, and I can cuddle her whenever I want. Roxy. But I think, even talking about, you know, ideas of connection and ideas of being together as thinking through, like, "Okay, a lot of Anishnaabeg ideas of self are so tied to relationality and other folks. And being separate and working through those ideas I found was an interesting challenge. Hopefully there's some space and some time where… I’m not sure what's happening right now, I know we have another lockdown, I don't know how you're feeling about that. [Both laugh]. It's definitely a cerebral experience. 

RC: Is there anything else you want to talk about to wrap up? 

NK: Maybe, yes. I just want to say thank you so much for having me. 

RC: Yeah, of course!

NK: I really enjoyed our convo. Wishing you the best of luck towards the end of your time at OCAD, [Laughs]. 

RC: Oh my gosh, yeah, geez. 

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NK: Yeah, I just wanted to say thank you and looking forward to hearing [inaudible].  

If you have an artist that you would like to hear interviewed, would like to correct / fact check a past episode, or would like to chat, feel free to send me a message on Instagram @hoppingthefence, or by email at rebeccaecasalino@gmail.com.  Thanks to the OCAD Student Union for your financial support. Thank you to all of our Patreons for your ongoing support. It truly does help me avoid burnout and keeps this podcast rolling. If you would like to support Hopping the Fence, please visit our Patreon to subscribe. Check out the show notes for more details. If you can’t donate, no worries. Thanks for taking the time to listen. 

Audio editing for Hopping the Fence by Emily Reimer. Original artwork by Alex Gregory, and original music by Jessica Price Eisner. 

Thank you so much, bye!

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