Rachel Rozanski

Hopping the Fence Podcast Transcript - #1, Rachel Rozanski

[Theme music is repetitive and catchy, with drums and electric keys] 

[Theme music fades in] 

RC: Hello, I’m Rebecca Casalino, and this is Hopping the Fence, a podcast dedicated to talk to artists on the fringes on the Canadian art scene. Rachel Rozanski is a Canadian emerging visual artist. She is an MFA candidate studying at Ryerson University in the final stages of her degree. Her practice has evolved to include contact images and video documenting melting permafrost in the north of Canada. 

[Theme music fades out] 

Rachel and her partner, Parham Banafsheh , drove across the Yukon documenting the changing landscape of Canada’s north. Our conversation was recorded in Tkaronto, on the traditional territories of the Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Anishinaabe, and Mississaugas of the New Credit First Nations. 

[Theme music fades in] 

RC: Well, hello Rachel.

RR: Hello, thank you for having me!

RC: Of course! Do you want to tell everybody where you are right now?

RR: I’m in Vancouver. I just got back from a two-and-a-half-month residency in the Yukon finishing up a bit of my latest project. 

RC: Was that directly tied to the university? Because you just graduated from Ryerson, right? 

[Intro music ends]

RR: Yeah, well I actually missed almost my whole last semester to go there, and then COVID. It was part of my MFA project, so I got away with it. 

RC: What was making art in Dawson under quarantine like? 

RR: Gosh, a lot of guilt. Mostly guilt for not making enough art. But, I don’t know, it was really weird because most of the stuff I plan to do I couldn't do because of weather and COVID, but also thinking in totally different directions. Maybe they won't show up in this project, but now that I don't have to even show in June, I have until December, when I'll hopefully show. So maybe it can expand a little more. 

RC: Where were you supposed to show in June? 

RR: At A Space. 

RC: So is it going to be at A Space again and then they've just pushed it back? 

RR: Yeah, so it's pushed to December but if things are open then it will be happening. [Laughs]. 

RC: What do you think it's going to look like? 

RR: Okay, well, right now I'm thinking I'll have six large-scale drawings. The main thing is probably the video component - it will be a two-channel piece set up in the corner of the room. And scans as well. I have contact is made from a portable scanner. 

RC: I was looking at your contact images, and we were both in the same studio when you were doing those skins... Are those the ones up on your website? 

RR: There's some new ones... There's a few new ones of permafrost. I've been doing stuff with the scanner for a little bit longer. But the stuff for this project collects cans of permafrost.

RC: Do you think you could explain how you scan permafrost? 

RR:  It was a scanner that I made portable by attaching a Pi, like a little Raspberry Pi, it's like a portable computer, and then I attach that to a power source. So it can be a laptop or a battery. It's really stupid and it takes forever. I may as well be taking really old school film photos, but that's the best thing I've come up with. 

RC: So how did you come upon making those images with a scanner? 

RR: I started playing around with the scanner with roadkill actually, [both laugh], because it was so flat, and I wanted to make an image I bet that was real you really shallow depth of field. But then it ended up becoming something else, because it played off ice really well, the way the light moves across it and the way it melts and things will it scanning. 

RC: Is that why you started drawing it, because of how well the ice translated in the photos? 

RR: No, I guess I always planned to do the drawings. But honestly the thing that's the hardest to do with this project, my background is totally in drawing, but for this project, I'm having trouble with the drawings the most, making them translate to the material. 

RC: Mhm. How was the transition from Dawson City back home? 

RR: Really weird. I was planning to stay there... I wasn't sure if I should stay there or leave. I'm immunocompromised so I was trying to decide the smartest place for me to be. I ended up deciding Vancouver. But it's definitely different coming to, you have to be way more careful. Washing groceries, not really making art because there I could just walk outside and have material to work from all the time. 

RC: Would you consider yourself an eco artist? 

RR: No, I don't really like to say that because I do have some issues with Western environmentalism. 

RC: [Laughs] Yes, truth. 

RR: But yeah, I guess I'm interested in environmental concerns. 

RC: Mhm. You interviewed an Indigenous woman for part of the video about the permafrost up north. Do you think that's the strategy because you are so resistant to this Western understanding of the earth? 

RR: I interviewed all sorts of people for that. I interviewed scientists, and I interviewed multiple people living on the land that's falling away. So I just kind of wanted to talk to everyone who's involved in that issue and working on that issue. And I think I've decided actually not to use the interview in the video, but it's been a wrestle. I think in the end, the video should be able to speak for itself. 

RC: Mhm. So you're not making art right now, are you just making a lot of food? 

RR: Pretty much. I've been fermenting everything under the sun. My goal is to get to a month without having to go grocery shopping. 

RC: Stop! [Laughs]. 

RR: I'm going to start driving soon enough. It's just weird because I need space to draw. I need N95 masks to draw with. 

RC: Because of the charcoal? 

RR: Yeah. I guess I could use N99 but it needs to be so small for the particles...

RC: Yeah. 

RR: They really affect my lungs. But I'll be editing for sure and I have to still defend in August, so I have to finish the work. 

RC: Mhm. Are you excited to defend? What's that going to look like for you? 

RR: It'll be a virtual defense. I don't know... I'm not excited at all. After two years of working on this project I feel like I'm just beating it over the head. I'd like to finish it and move on to something else. But I don't know, I think it will be really easy to defend. All I really care about is the show. 

RC: Mhm, mhm. And for the show, do you have a thesis or a concept that you're running with? Or you're just going to show the body of work? 

RR: Well I guess I'll give you a little bit of a spiel about the project. I'll tell you first a little of my background, how I got there. I've been working in northern environments for a while. I started off looking at these conglomerates. I was working with Scientists in Iceland and then later in Nunavut looking at objects that were some combination manufactured and organic material, and how they disintegrate and affect the ecosystem. That's what I was into before. But looking into land change in general in Northern Canada. So much of that has to do with permafrost, and permafrost degradation.  I definitely didn't understand that until I saw it...that permafrost covers over half of Canada. And it's a mixture of all sorts of things, but it's basically frozen land. So, it can make up so much of the land too. So it thawing means that huge chunks of the north could become swampland and bogs, and there's all sorts of things in there that can come out like gases that contribute to climate change but also fossilized specimens and bacteria. Pretty much, the video project I shot in the Yukon and the Northwest Territories following climate change and, I guess on the ways that permafrost and water are being altered in the Anthropocene. So that can be from the direct effect of small-scale mining, or from the effects of large-scale climate change. And that some of the world's oldest permafrost. So I was looking at millions of years worth of history. 

RC: Do you get a sense of history as you're looking at these core samples that you're scanning? 

RR: Yeah. I was scanning some core samples and then some chunks of permafrost that were just exposed that I found along my trip in the Yukon. Yeah, and in the core samples you can definitely see the history and the makeup of the land and the strata. Even in the slumps that I would go to, permafrost slumps were huge chunks of land that just melt and cave away. You can see the strata in it and the layers of History. 

RC: How did the people in Dawson... What do they think about your artwork? 

RR: The first time I went there last summer, I had an open house. And it was really fun because I was doing a lot of work in mines around there, so I was nervous about how people would react. But a lot of miners showed up to my open house and they really liked it. 

RC: Oh, that's awesome! 

RR: Which was... Yeah, it was really cool. Because the point of this project was not to shit on mining or resource extraction, that just wasn't really the point. At least not [inaudible] mining.

RC: Your work is so different from a lot of the stuff that I'm seeing in Toronto. And I know you come from the BC background, but do you find that your practice is a bit unusual in the greater, of course air quotes, always Canadian art landscape? 

RR: The only thing I would say is other Canadian artists working with concept surrounding the Anthropocene. I haven't seen anyone working with permafrost actually but... 

RC: Do you think it's a hard thing to translate to a visual medium maybe? 

RR: Yeah, it's really hard to visualize but also to make people care about. [Both laugh]. 'Cause it just doesn't have the same impact as looking at an iceberg. So that was maybe the biggest challenge. And my partner who helped me shoot it, he came and he was like, "What the hell am I filming, some dirt?" [Both laugh]. I think we made it look pretty... think it's coming across. But also it's so time-based, you know, you have to be able to compare the difference. 

RC: Do you think that's why you're so drawn to video, because it is a time-based experience? 

RR: Yeah, the only reason I got into video and all was this project. I've been avoiding video so hard my whole life. It's not a way I like to work, but I knew I needed it for this subject. 

RC: Why do you feel like you needed it? 

RR: Because it doesn't come across and drawings or photos. I'm happy with my scans, but they don't show you how active it is. 

RC: Mmmm. What was the most frustrating thing about video? Why don't you like working with it as a person with a drawing background? 

RR: [Laughs], I guess I've been a lot more process-based usually. So I stay in a place, and I go out every day, come back, do a little something, go back out, learn some more. And that's how I like to work. So video, I had to plan ahead. And I just didn't. My plan was to follow or eroding land thawing, tailing into rivers, lakes and eventually the sea. 

RC: True. Do you think artists and filmmakers have different working patterns? Was that the issue? You are an artist brain and Paramham was a filmmaker brain? 

RR: Yeah, I totally think so.  But also, if I have been staying in one place for a month making video it could have worked for sure. But because we had to travel within a certain time span, we had to drive from Dawson up to Tuktoyaktuk and then back to BC. It was just really intense and fast, and I had to know pretty fast what I want shot. There's so many things I wish I'd gotten. It just kills me everyday. [Both laugh]. 

RC: So you say you want to move on from this project, but would you ever go back and shoot the things that you wanted to shoot? Let's say you were given the budget you needed and it wasn't a mess this time. Or hectic, sorry, not a mess. 

RR: [Laughs]. It was definitely a mess in some ways. [Both laugh]. Actually, doing it felt like a mess. I got back and looked at the footage and I was like "Okay, there's stuff here." But doing it, oh my god. You know, I could spend like 20 years on this project, it's so huge. But I have to just stop at some point. I keep wanting to go back. I went back in the summer, I went in the winter. Sure I'd love to go back again but, yeah.

[Intro music plays throughout next segment]

RC: Hello folks, are you tired of hearing cis white ladies talk about art? I know I am! Some other really amazing queers are making podcasts, and I’d like to take a break to do a shout out. Queer Black & Awkward is a great podcast, and I’d like to spotlight season 3, episode 6: Raiki – Faciliating Healing for Queer Individuals. You can find this podcast wherever you’re listening now or follow them on Instagram at @queerblackawkward. 

[End of segment]

RC: Are you an artist who returns to project a lot? Do you run with ideas for years? 

RR: I don't know. I feel like I've been kind of working with the same concepts for...fuck, my whole practice. 

RC: [Laughs]. 

RR: So sometimes I'm like, "Oh my gosh, am I just beating this dead dog?" I'm just stuck on it. And I have different subject matter, but it seems to be kind of along the same concept. 

RC: What would you say that concept is? 

RR: Understanding the environment and rethinking ideas of nature in the Anthropocene. 

RC: Yeah, that makes sense. Do you want to define Anthropocene? 

RR: Totally. So the Anthropocene is our current geological era. People are saying that we've now moved on Holocene and we're entering the Anthropocene. 

RC: Do you find that because you're working with the Anthropocene, it's easier for you to enter into institutional spaces? 

RR: I think institutions either love it or hate it. I've definitely gotten an upper hand with some things, like getting certain funding through the school. But outside of school, it's been... really a lot of galleries want to avoid that, and anything environmental really, or they're really into environmental work and that's it.

RC: So, the backing of Ryerson, you find that made a big difference when applying to grants, or whatever you needed? Or it was coming from Ryerson? 

RR: Just being in school, the funding opportunities available like SSHRC... 

RC: True. 

RR: Finding within the school as well. I mean, I was definitely favoured by some teachers that were the ones deciding funding, so I had some advantages for sure. 

RC: Were you favoured because of your subject matter? 

RR: Yeah. It's a hot topic. [Laughs].

RC: A hot topic. That's so weird though.  So within the academic Institution, it's like a hot topic, but within the more visual display culture...? 

RR: That's my sense, but I don't really know. In the school, it was pretty clear. You know, I knew who was on the board deciding who gets the funding and stuff, but outside that I don't really know, it's just my feeling that some people really want to avoid it. 

RC: Yeah... I find when you're a student somewhere, the chances of someone being on the board knowing who you are, knowing you're a keener or that you do good work makes such a difference. Do you think that maybe because the people looking at your applications, because they don't know you and because you're not a familiar name you get less of a chance? Or you really do think it's the subject matter? 

RR: I don't know! I think there's just so many galleries that environmental work doesn't into their mandate and they want nothing to do with it, but yes of course that will be part of it. 

RC:  As an artist, how do you identify in the scene? Thinking about yourself within the larger picture. 

RR: Oh gosh, I have no idea. I just call myself a Canadian artist. 

RC: Do you say "emerging" if you're talking to other Canadians too, or no? 

RR: Yeah, I'd say emerging. That's about right. 

RC: Do you have the hopes of becoming a mid-career? Do you see yourself levelling up? 

RR: Oh totally, yes. I mean, being an artist is the only thing I want to do, so I think I'm just going to try and do that. My goal is to be a full-time artist so I may never get there but I'll probably die trying. 

RC: It's the eternal struggle. [Both laugh]. You see a pathway to you becoming a mid-career? Or what barriers are you running up against? 

RR: Okay, well first of all, there is not opportunity in BC. There just isn't an opportunity to move up through things like government funding. If you don't want to be a commercial artist, I think it's just so bloody hard to become an artist in Vancouver. 

RC: Yeah. 

RR: So that's part of why I [inaudible] move to Toronto, because Ontario is definitely better. But something I've been noticing a lot is the more remote places... Like in the Yukon, there's just so much more opportunity for funding and for having your work supported, and there's way less of the political crap and institutional crap that follows you. And it's just a totally different scene that I would really rather be a part of. 

RC: Are there institutions up in Dawson? What was the residency you were doing up there? 

RR: It was part of the Klondike Institute for Art & Culture. Are an amazing Institution. They support all sorts of community programs and the residencies, and grants as well, yeah. Yeah, there's two galleries in Dawson. And one is with Kayak, and the other is with the SOVA, it's an art school there. 

RC: My theory was that maybe the less institutions stirring up the mud, the easier it would be to get work shown, but maybe that's not the case and it's just Urban institutions that really have this problem, you know? 

RR: Yeah, I think it's also so much about the politics. I think it's a different attitude. I mean, ok. I can't really say... I mean, I know several full-time artists in Dawson, for one. And that's a crazy thing. And there are artists that, I think, a lot of them move there for that reason, and for the opportunity. And it's more of a spirit of, "okay, let's help this project happen, let's help this happen." I guess that's also to do with the fact that everybody kind of knows everybody, or you know of everybody and there's a good chance you'll know who's deciding if your work gets into a show or if you get funding or whatever. It's just a different attitude.

RC: Yeah, smaller community. Guelph was definitely like that too but... I don't know, it's still a city so there were still some politics. When you say "politics," do you mean like... nepotism in the art world? The same 10 people kind of show up? Or your work is too environmentally based? Like what do you mean by politics? 

RR: Yeah, I think all those things. And just also... When you were talking about becoming a mid-level career or full-time artist, I think it's decided less based on that if you get things. 

RC: [Sighs], yeah. Do you think all the emerging artists are just fighting to get the same spot basically? 

RR: [Laughs]. You mean in Toronto? 

RC: Across Canada. Feel small enough. [Both laugh]. Or you think that that's an attitude just in Toronto? 

RR: Yeah, I really don't know. I don't have a sense yet very well of the Toronto art scene. 

RC: Yeah. Do you feel like you were a part of it while you were here? 

RR: No I don't really. I feel like I was so new to it, I didn't even really break in yet. 

RC: Yeah. Also you were doing your masters, so I feel like that's the worst time to try and integrate yourself into a scene, when you're like overloaded with work. 

RR: Mmm, yeah. That too. 

RC: Have a social life, but also write all this stuff and make all this stuff. [Both laugh]. Do you think you would come back to Toronto where do you see yourself being in Vancouver? Like where do you see yourself being a mid-career artist? What scene?

RR: Well... 

RC: Dawson. 

RR: I do see myself in Toronto. Yeah, Dawson [laughs]. I do see myself coming back Toronto, and I'd like to continue there, but I don't know. Everything's on hold with COVID. It might be a year before I can do that. 

RC: Oh, for sure. Yeah. If you want to talk about COVID we can. But I think that it's just stirred up so much stuff in the art world that we were kind of already all anxious about, and now it's just made it kind of worse. 

RR: Yeah. Same old same old. [Both laugh]. 

RC: How do you think... What's the thing that you're going to do next after you're done this, what idea do you want to jump on? 

RR: After what? 

RC: After you're done defending. 

RR: Oh geez, well... I really want to continue working on my project on the port lands. 

RC: Yes! Do you want to tell the stories about your port lands project? 

RR: Yeah. Okay. So, it started when I first moved to Toronto, and I moved into a warehouse with Rebecca. 

RC: Woohoo! [Both laugh]. 

RR: And I was like, "Where the hell am I living?" In this weird warehouse on this weird land. I started looking around... so, it was on the port lands, and I started looking around and finding all these weird... first thing I noticed was there was so many dead things there. Just animals dead, all over the port lands. Then I started looking into what, and I found out all this crazy stuff about the port lands. Like its histories as different kinds of dumps. It's just super, super chemical, and that's the reason nobody's actually allowed to live there is because it's dangerous. It's really high in heavy metals and toxic chemicals. And it's on the lakeshore so all along the beaches is these rocks that are, look like just rocks, but up close it's mostly pieces of worn down brick and metal and garbage and all sorts of stuff, and glass... And then I found out that they're planning to revitalize the port lands, around the same time that we actually got kicked out of our warehouse, and it's getting upgraded. 

RC: Sidewalk Labs actually got cancelled. So our landlord, he should've kept us. 

RR: What?! Ugh, that kills me. 

RC: Sorry, continue, just news. [laughs]. 

RR: I miss the warehouse life. Well, maybe we can get it back now. 

RC: Yes! Reclaim the warehouse. [Both laugh]. 

RR: Make it better. So yeah, they're revitalizing the port lands, which basically means they're going to cover up all that toxic sludge with a certain amount of clean dirt.  They're using all these funny words to talk about it – “revitalizing,” “greening” the port lands. They're going to make it into this beautiful fantasy land of marshes and stuff. 

RC: Yeah, it's the shoreline project. That's what the Toronto Biennale was named after...well, it felt reminiscent of, because they're gentrifying all along the shoreline there, all of lakeshore really. 

RR: Yeah, totally. So it's going to become a place with super expensive condos and all that. But I just thought it was really interesting because of how they talk about creating nature. Because it used to be a wetland, a marshland, and now they're sort of creating this... actually, that to me is the definition of nature, the Western term of it in the idea of a perfect environment. So yeah, so I was looking at that and then I did a short video project about it and a book, and then I'd like to do some more.

RR: The video was so striking to me, and I don't know if it's because you described the scene to me, of all those... was it swans that were frozen, or seagulls? 

RR: Ducks. 

RC: Ducks, they were all the dead, frozen ducks. 

RR: Yeah, that was one beach I worked on a lot, and every time I went back, there'd be something super weird going on. So once it was these ducks that looked like they had just sat down to go to sleep and they died. And it was like 20 of them. 

RC: Wow. 

RR: Just in a really small area. 

RC: What was the weather, 'cause it wasn't cold then was it? 

RR: It was kind of cold, but that wouldn't die like that, that wouldn't just happen unless something else was going on. I mean, totally, there's all sorts of crazy deaths on the port lands, unexplained. 

RC: Yeah. It's also a spot that, I know you're not from Toronto but you see how obsessed everyone is with the Leslie Spit, which is like part of the port lands, right? A lot of people go there to make art. It's kind of like this pilgrimage that I take a lot of non-artists on as well, just bring them to see it. Do you feel like you were documenting the beauty of it or kind of like how messed up it was? How do you feel you were representing it? Because it is such beautiful images, but they're all of dead things and garbage and decay, you know? 

RR: Yeah, I guess I started off thinking of it as a sort of scientific catalogue style thing, of specimens that were dead and I didn't know why. So that's what it started as. And then it just became a documentation - look at this place, and then over years I guess I'd like to follow it and show the transformation as it becomes "nature." 

RC: Yeah. The irony... not the irony, I never use that word right. But also, we have Sugar Beach, which as a little girl, I thought was an actual beach. But it's just like that little patch of sand that someone's just dumped there beside the sugar factory and put some lawn chairs on. So as much as we say "Sugar Beach," is she a beach? Is that nature? 

RR: I guess I was so into that because coming from BC, I've never seen a place that's just been so turned over so many times and gone through so many changes in what it is and what we call it. And there's just so much history there, and history before settlers were there too is really interesting. It was like a significant marshland. So I don't know, just all the layers of history in that, it's like strata on the beach that you can see. 

RC: Mhm. Do you think that that's what you're interested in? Like capturing that kind of history of land and how people are changing that? 

RR: I guess, yeah. But I guess more interested in how convoluted it all is... Is that the right word? That's not the right word. How integrated it is in the Anthropocene and how we look at it. Like the fact that there's trees and wildlife and everything's still on the port lands, using it in different ways. Everything's adapted is it in different ways. And sure, the wildlife has changed, the plant life has changed, but that doesn't mean it's less of the environment I guess, and that's what's interesting to me. The idea that it's not nature now, and it's going to become nature when they cover it up with some other stuff and probably a lot of invasive plants... 

RC: Oh my gosh. 

RR: Those definitions and concepts are interesting, and I think how we think about nature when we're in the Anthropocene really affect the environment. 

RC: Yeah.  Well, is there anything you want to say with regards to hopping the fence into the art world, any advice you may want to give or things you wish you had known as an artist entering into it that you know now? 

RR: I think the thing that's benefited me the most is having a niche all the way along. And it didn't... I didn't plan that at all, it just kind of happened. And now I just run in these little mini circles. And it's not like I'm running anywhere but it's a place I fit into the art scene. It's like my little niche. 

RC: Yeah. 

RR: So I don't know, I guess that's one of the advantages because even though it keeps me from getting some things, it gives me definitely advantages and other ways. So that's probably been the thing that's pushed me forward the most. 

RC: Do you feel like you have a community of artists that are thinking about the same things as you, and that would show in shows with you and chat with you? 

RR: I think I definitely have a community of artists working in the north, that's probably what I have the most right now because of the C3 expedition and then working in Nunavut and the Northwest Territories, it's just such a small group of people that I guess I've ended up in that. 

RC: Is your thesis show going to be at A-Space again? 

RR: Yes, it should be at A-Space, I hope December. 

RC: December. A-Space. Maybe you can see Rachel Rozanski's work in person. [Laughs]. If you're in Toronto. But also you have your website right? 

RR: I do. And I'm hoping that the video will show in more places and the show will travel in general. 

RC: Big things up ahead. Soon to be mid-career artists. 

RR: [Laughs]. Fingers crossed. 

[Theme music fades in.]

RC: Thanks for listening to Hopping the Fence, a podcast dedicated to the fringes of the Canadian art scene. If you have an artist that you would like to hear interviewed, would like to correct / fact check a past episode, or would like to chat, feel free to send me a message on Instagram @hoppingthefence, or by email at rebeccaecasalino@gmail.com. Thanks to OCAD University for their financial support, my project supervisor Amish Morrell for his advice and guidance, and Claudia Slogar Rick for all of her extra help. Original artwork for Hopping the Fence by Alex Gregory, original music by Jessica Price Eisner. Thank you so much, bye!

[Theme music fades out.]